Patti

I almost felt like I was ready to be checked in somewhere because it was that bad. Like, I just could not do this and I needed to go somewhere where I wasn't gonna do this like I was gonna run away or something because I just, I didn't see a way out.

Tanya Tringali

Are you pregnant? Or a new parent looking to ensure a better postpartum experience? Or are you a birth worker looking to improve your postpartum care skills? Check out thriving after birth, an online self paced course by me midwife and educator Tanya Tringali. It's 10 and a half hours of video content featuring experts in lactation mental health, pelvic floor health, pediatric sleep issues, you also get worksheets and a workbook as well as options to have a one on one session with me, sign up and Motherwitmaternity.com/thriving. And let's improve postpartum care together.

Hey, everyone, I'm your midwife, Tanya Tringali. Welcome to the mother wit podcast, a show about the issues we healthcare consumers and providers face every day as we interact with the medical system. We'll talk about its blind spots, shortcomings, and share strategies we can use to feel seen and heard no matter which side of the table we sit on. On today's episode, I have one of the most honest stories any new parent has ever told on this show. If you've been listening for a while, you know that each season I feature clients who are willing to share, I invite people with all sorts of varied experiences and perspectives. But I do try to shine a light on topics for which I think people need more information, topics that I think people can learn about best by hearing personal stories. So today, Patti, a client who stands out in my mind is one of the people who struggled the most with a history of depression and anxiety before, during and after her pregnancy graciously shares her story. At times, I worried that I wouldn't know how best to help her. But she worked so hard. And she was so willing to try almost anything I suggested. I found that to be such a unique quality because as you know, anxiety and depression can be debilitating. But she was rather persistent in her pursuit of happiness. Patti, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. Absolutely, thank you for inviting me. I really think that your story is going to resonate with so many people who feel so much of what you felt have a similar even previous to pregnancy lived experience. And kind of just keep all that inside and deal with a lot of it alone. It's still hard for me to believe that that's as common as it is. But it is it's really common for people to feel like they have no one to go to in these situations.

Patti

Absolutely. I remember thinking, you know that there's a statistic of one in seven people have postpartum depression. And yet, going into this, I only knew of one person personally that I knew who had gone through it, which is obviously not the case. You know, obviously lots of more people that I know have gone through it and just don't talk about it. And I feel like that's such a shame. Because when I started to open up about it, you know, I did hear from people like oh, yeah, I went through that too. But it would have been nice to know that at a time. Because then I could have had more support going into it knowing that others had gone through the same thing that I could turn to who would get it, you know? Yeah, I feel like depression, anxiety. Mood disorders in general, are similar in our current cultural point in history, I suppose. As miscarriage, right, like miscarriage isn't talked about enough. So when somebody has a miscarriage, they feel really alone and only after they've had a miscarriage and they try to talk to people to all these others come out of the woodwork and say, Oh, I've had that experience too. So it's so interesting. And I see a shift culturally we are doing a little bit better. But by no means are we in a good place. Yeah. And I, I've tried to be really open about it too. But I see why it's difficult to talk about it because it's not you're kind of protecting yourself in a way to from judgment or from people just not understanding and saying something that will make it worse, right. So you know, that happens a lot. I'll open up to someone and, you know, it's it's also so different how my friendships have changed since having kids like, I must have been like such a bad friend before because I didn't understand. You know, I didn't understand how to support my friends who'd had kids at all until I had one and I was in it, and then all these new moms that I had been friends with just came out of nowhere and just supported me so much, which was so helpful. Because you really need that. And so it can be tough to know where to get support from. And that's also why I was really glad that I tried to have as many systems in place at a time, like, Thank you, especially, because I don't know how I would have survived. Otherwise, I did anticipate it being rough for me. But I couldn't have imagined how bad it was going to be until I was in it.

Tanya Tringali

You know, you just reminded me of something that I want you to come back to. And I will take a mental note for later. But you just reminded me that you, in addition to utilizing my services, took on many different layers of support. And I'll want you to lay out what some of those other things were. Because it wasn't just me, you definitely had other things in the mix. And, you know, this episode isn't about me trying to get people to work with me, this episode is about helping people understand all that's out there for them and the ways in which they can utilize that. So I'm going to bookmark that so we can come back to it. But in the meantime, I want to kind of take it back to the beginning because you have a history of anxiety and depression, which many people do, who end up having depression anxiety that troubles them during the antenatal or prenatal period and as well as postpartum. But I think it's always important that we kind of take a quick peek back at the origins of that, because it's really different for everybody. Would you mind sharing just a little bit about the early days of you understanding that you had anxiety and depression?

Patti

Absolutely. So my first major depressive episode that I can think back on was when I was in high school. I had always been kind of a shy and anxious kid before that, though. So it's kind of tough to say, when it started, I you know, I've always been, I've always had a lot of social anxiety though I had more generalized anxiety later on, I think. But actually depression was what I struggled more with for a long time. Just kind of always lingering in the background. And about seven years ago, I had another like, really major depressive episode, which, like, I almost didn't survive through that. And that's also when I started to really develop anxiety as like, like clinical anxiety as a major thing. In addition, and then for a long time, you know, anxiety was more of a more what I would experience rather than depression. You know, so heading into pregnancy, and, you know, knowing the statistics and knowing that I was much more at risk to have postpartum depression, of course, that's something I anticipated and worried about. And, you know, having had this, like, really bad episode, you know, some years ago, fresh in my mind. Like, I knew how bad it could get. And, and of course, back then it was easier because it was just, it was just me. And I didn't also have to worry about taking care of a newborn or any of that. By the way, I had zero experience with babies or children. I never babysat, I never held a baby. So like, you know, I was like going and starting at level zero here, total newbie, like, you know, and I do lots of research, I do, I try to prepare as much as I can I do all of the things, you know, but nothing can really prepare you for that, you know, until you're in it, obviously, it wasn't, you know, a baby person growing up. So yeah, there was a lot of, you know, lack of confidence there. I tried to prepare as much as I could. But I also knew that once I had the baby, there wouldn't be any time to really do that. Because, you know, I'd be sleep deprived and you know, things were going to be so busy. So my pregnancy was very stressful in that way. I put a lot on myself to try to prepare. My husband was working really long hours, too. And so it felt felt like a lot of it fell on me to just make sure everything was we were ready. And you know, and maybe things that would have been a little different, too. But we recently like a year prior had moved away from the city where we used to live. And we didn't really have any friends in the new area plus, with pin pandemic going on. Like, we hadn't really made any new friends or you know, had any social network nearby. Both of our parents, you know, don't live nearby either. So we didn't have any family. And so, of course, that's another big thing because if we had friends or family nearby, then it may have, you know, been a little different. But I knew that we didn't and so there was you know that stressor as well. Um, my pregnancy was very physically very easy. Because I, you know, for years, I worried about how I would handle pregnancy to since I had a lot of history with chronic pain and other medical stuff. But actually, like, all of that went really well. But the mental toll that it took on me was insane. And I had known, I had one friend who had had prenatal depression, and had mentioned it once. And even with all of my knowledge about mental health and such from my own years in therapy, and whatever, I never knew that prenatal depression was a thing, which of course, it makes sense, you know, because you can have depression at any time. Right? Um, so I'm glad that I had that awareness at least. But yeah, that I was definitely dealing with that. And I didn't know how to recognize it either. Because in the past, I had recognized depression as more like a looming cloud, that was just like, underneath everything constantly. And this was more like a roller coaster. And so I wasn't sure if it was depression, or if it was just pregnancy hormones, you know, up and down, because I would have a lot of silly up and downs to I mean, it was just, you know how it is. So, it was really hard to assess what was going on. And I'd been in therapy, on and off, mostly off, because, you know, insurance doesn't cover it and whatnot. So I usually wait till I'm really in crisis to have that, unfortunately, because I'm a huge proponent of therapy. And I would be in it all the time, if I could. But, yeah, so I think I, I found a therapist, kind of late in my pregnancy, mostly as like a, well, my doctor recommended it too. But I agreed, like, it would be good to have one that I already had heading into labor and delivery and postpartum because I was going to need that support. And it was also just, you know, it helped to navigate pregnancy a little bit as well. I was just so paranoid about everything, you know, we put so much pressure on the person carrying the baby to, you know, it's like you're a vessel, and you can't do anything wrong and anything and basically you read everything you put into your body is going to harm the baby somehow. And I also struggled with some like eating, not eating disorder, but I think I have like disordered eating, you know, issues. And so it was very hard for me to not be stressed all the time that I was pregnant and worried that I was doing something wrong and harming my baby. And still like, I cannot go through that again. You know, it was, it was really hard. And it was really hard on my relationship with my husband. Like when I was pregnant, it was it was rough. It was not a good time. On the other hand, I did love being pregnant, I loved feeling pregnant, I loved what my body was doing. I loved how I felt. So yeah, there's just so many conflicting emotions, about this time in my life, about all of this.

Tanya Tringali

That really explains the feeling, though, very concisely of the ups and downs that were unique to you. And pregnancy because on one hand, you were able to find moments of experiencing how magical it is what your body is doing. But on the other hand, all the fear and all the hormones and all the other things that are absolutely legit, and part of the equation would creep back up on you and rob you of that joy, right. So well...

Patti

Yeah, and I wonder if part of it was because I was too educated. You know, it's hard to know, like you say, it's good to be prepared. But sometimes that makes it worse. Because, you know, I'm in my as already 3633 I just turned 36 When I got pregnant. I knew very well how common miscarriage was. I knew the risks. I knew all I knew all about genetic issues, I knew all the things that could go wrong. And my brain never let me forget that stuff. I mean, it was just always there. And it made it hard to enjoy it. You know, towards the end, it was easier because it was like, Okay, we've gotten to this point, like, the further along you get it's like okay, maybe I can relax a little, although, I also know everything that could go wrong and delivery. And and like I had mentioned before, I tried to prepare as much as possible, but there's only so much you can prepare. There's too many things that can go wrong. And I don't know my husband was much more chill about this, you know, and not as maybe aware of the realities, but as such he was able to enjoy it a lot more because nothing bad happened. So it all went well. I had like a a dream like labor and delivery to you know, and so I was just like, wow, that battle went really well. And maybe I shouldn't have worried so much. But it's like I really didn't have much control over what my brain was doing at the time, and definitely not in postpartum.

Tanya Tringali

Yeah. Well, one of the things you said that I think is really important to drive home is, earlier on, you said, there's nothing that can prepare you, right. And then later on, you mentioned, wondering if you were over prepared. And I think that's where the type of work we did, as opposed to perhaps the other types of work that you may have done in other areas, is so critical. And, again, whether it's a professional or it's a loved one that plays a similar role for people, part of finding that balance, I think, is being prepared for certain really common things in terms of the awareness that it can happen, understanding what it is, but not necessarily going down the rabbit hole of everything, because you never know which things you're going to get. So I'm distinctly remembering that while you were still pregnant, we went down some rabbit holes about your labor. Yeah, right with the labor that you want it. And then you had this, as you say, pretty easy pregnancy, wonderful birth, all of this stuff. And thank God, you had those things. Because Have you not those would have been other things that you had to deal with, in retrospect, so I'm so thrilled that you did it. But that's exactly my point. Someone else may, and this person exists out there had have had a hard pregnancy, and or a hard delivery, but not end up dealing with postpartum depression or anxiety. And so you never know which set which set of cards you're gonna get yet. And to having your support on hand to deal with whatever it is that does come up is what's most important.

Patti

Absolutely. Although I wanted to just circle back because you said like, yeah, and I had an easy time with with all of that. But, you know, part of me also felt guilty about that with the postpartum feelings, because it was like, we didn't have any health problems with the baby, I had an easy time I had the delivery that I wanted. Why am I struggling so much, because I also knew that like traumatic birth can lead to postpartum you know, like, all these other things. And it almost felt like, what am I? Why am I struggling so much? Because I had it easier, you know, and also, I have a pretty easy baby like, and I'm very grateful for that. Because like I said, I had no experience with babies at all. And I had a really hard time becoming confident as a mom. So it's a good thing that we didn't really have. We haven't had any, like, major medical problems with her or anything. Just the normal newborn stuff, which is hard enough. Oh, yeah. It's hard enough. But thank God because, you know, I have other friends who had lots of issues with their babies. I didn't have an easy time. Like, I'm the problem here. No one gets off easy. You know, someone you always struggle with something whether it's pregnancy, the delivery, you know, the baby or mental health. Like I feel like no one gets off scot free here.

Tanya Tringali

Nobody, Nobody? Nobody. Okay, let's take it back a little bit. I want to we now know that you had a fairly easy pregnancy, a nice birth. But what do you remember most about those first few days home?

Patti

I actually listened to some of our old Marko Polos, because

Tanya Tringali

You did?

Patti

Yeah. Because it's so crazy to hear myself those first few days. Like, I don't even recognize myself. And I remember thinking like, like, logically, like, I know, this is going to be hard. I knew this was going to be hard. And I know that I'm, you know, I'm supposed to be feeling overwhelmed and baby blues and all of that. But I still was like, I don't understand how people do this. Well, the other thing is, the baby came like a week early. And my mom was supposed to come help. But because of her schedule, it ended up being two weeks before she could come. And my husband had to go to work after those two weeks. So it was kind of dicey, with like, me getting help, but also, I was just thinking, like, it's not it's too much for two people, you know, especially when one of those people is recovering from childbirth. And, you know, I didn't even have a C section or anything. That's the other thing. It's like, gosh, how do people do this when they have C sections, but I was physically struggling so much, too. And it was just it just felt impossible. And, you know, we prepared a lot ahead of time to in terms of logistics, where the baby would sleep and how we were going to set up the house and none of that ended up working out. We had to completely like change things on the fly. Because you just don't know until you're in it, what's going to work it's really hard to prepare and you know, my brain does not like this kind of thing I like being prepared and having things work. And there's so much unknowns that come with that. And it was, it was so hard. But also, like, I had a hard time sleeping, we tried to prioritize sleep, we plan to take shifts, we kind of needed to anyway, because I was basically useless at taking care of the baby in the beginning. But I had a hard time sleeping anyway, like, I would go to sleep. And my brain would not go to sleep, like I couldn't sleep longer than three hours stretches, I think because my body knew I was supposed to be breastfeeding or whatever. And so I would just wake up constantly, even though I was trying to sleep, people would be trying to let me sleep, but I couldn't. And that was really rough Because then there would be like a day where I got a lot of sleep. And it was just the whole world was brighter, everything was better. Just because I had gotten sleep. So not being able to sleep, even when you're really trying to get enough sleep was really, really hard. Well, that was another thing that contributed, you know, I had breastfeeding struggles. And that was something that was really important to me. And I did a lot of preparation work for that as well. I saw lactation consultants ahead of time. I mean, I knew it was a challenge, I knew it wasn't going to come easily. So I really tried to prepare. And it just did not work out. And I had to give up really quickly on that. And that was really hard to grieve, too. You know. And part of me always kind of wonders if that had gone easier, how would that have affected things? You know, or if I hadn't had the mental health challenges, how would that have affected it? Because basically, I, you know, I knew what I needed to do, to at least help to solve the challenges were having. But I couldn't do it because mentally I just could not handle it. You know?

Tanya Tringali

Yeah, well, what I what I remember about it is besides the physical struggles of the act of breastfeeding, that were real, you were having so much trouble sleeping, right, you came home already sleep deprived, as almost everybody does from a hospital stay. I mean, it's just the way it is, you came home sleep deprived, breastfeeding was not going well. So you were basically trying to figure it out. 24/7, then we would be trying to change gears and get you to get some sleep, but then you couldn't sleep. So we could never get ahead of that. Yeah. And it became clear very quickly to all of us, your husband, you and me that we needed to prioritize your mental health first. Like it just leapt to the top of the list.

Patti

I actually have a little journal app where I kept track of, you know, events and stuff as they happen, because I have no short term memory at all anymore. And definitely back then I did it. And I wanted to remember how things had happened. But like, basically, we came home from the hospital on a Tuesday. And by Thursday, that was like a crisis day already, you know. And because I was meant to be pumping, because we're having trouble latching. So I was meant to be pumping a lot to keep my supply up and all of that. And I just couldn't because all my energy was to surviving mentally those days. And that Thursday, like I was on the phone with friends and stuff who were talking me off the ledge is what it felt like, you know, it was that kind of day, so that entire day. We didn't know, latching we didn't know pumping. And it just felt like, Yeah, I can't come back from this. Because like, I dried up so quickly. And it's like, by the time I could get a little more mentally stable, it's too late, you know, which is really hard. Like, I don't know how people do it. Because, you know, we yeah, we had, the baby was very healthy. And we didn't really have many issues with her. But yeah, she wouldn't let that was the thing. That that was hard. And mentally that was hard for me too, because I felt it felt like she was rejecting me. And you know, she would cry all the time, and I wouldn't know how to help it. And so every time we would try, that wouldn't go well. And that would just send me down a spiral to and grieving the loss of that of being able to breastfeed was very hard for me to even though I knew that I knew very well that formula was fine and that lots of people have challenges breastfeeding. Like I was very educated on this. And it'll head of time I told myself, I wasn't gonna give myself a hard time if it doesn't work out that my mental health was a priority. I told myself all these things. So I wasn't like feeling guilty. Like about it, but I just felt like I had to grieve it, you know, the Yeah, the path I wanted and the you know, relationship, you know, or whatever how I wanted it to be and I had to grieve that and that made me really sad.

Tanya Tringali

Yeah, well, I think part of you know, it's funny, this is part of relationships of all kinds. And it's certainly part of parenthood and being a new new parent, especially, I think we learn a special skill of how to hold two opposing thoughts as equal. And I find anyway, for me that one side of the equation tends to be a little more heady or intellectual, while the other side is a little more emotional. And they are both valid, but you know, they feel like they're competing. And in those early days of grieving, the loss of something that didn't go the way you want, or whatever it is, it's really just those two, it's like scales, the traditional image of, you know, those balancing scales. And time, kind of takes care of a piece of that, right, it never completely goes away, you can always look back and add some more wonder, as you're probably doing right now. And being brave enough to share your story. But yeah, it's, I think, I think I know, you tell me that your intellectual brain believes that you made the right choices.

Patti

Oh, yeah. I mean, okay, well, I feel like I didn't make the choice, though. I feel like my body or I mean, like, that was part of why it was hard to deal with, because it felt like the choice was made for me, because I was just trying to survive, and then my body quit, you know, like, yeah. So that that was hard to. On the other hand, you know, we're eight months out now. And sometimes I just think like, how, like, okay, yes, there are a lot of challenges with formula feeding to, like, the shortage that we've had to deal with. Yeah. And, you know, logistically, it's a challenge for if I didn't have to pack food every time we left the house. However, sometimes I just think like, God, I didn't have to deal with all these other things, though, that we that I would have, and I would have had so much less autonomy. If you know, I was tied to her that way. And just all these other things that, I don't know, make me wonder how people breastfeed at all. So I've definitely made peace with it in that way, because it's like, yeah, this definitely was the right move for our family. And I mean, she's thriving, you know, she's in the 99th percentile for her height. And like, I mean, she's super healthy. So clearly, you know, it was the right decision. In the end, I do think back a lot, like, if certain things were different, like, what if we had decided to formula feed from the get go? What if we had adopted her, so I wasn't going through all this physical stuff, you know, in the early days, you know, how would that have affected things, you know, because it's just so much like you don't realize, like to have to go through all this recovery. And then also dealing with a newborn, and it's just, it's in the sleep deprivation is just, I don't know, it's just so much, it's too much. It's really too much.

Tanya Tringali

It's a miracle sometimes that the human race has, has survived as long as it has. And look, we this is cliche, and I should probably say this on every episode. This was obviously easier in a time of life, where we lived close to our whole extended families in villages, it does take a village, and in a village situation, we let the new parent get a ton of rest, and we wait on that person, hand and foot, we do all of these wonderful things for them. And so it's amazing that we're surviving modern society is really well...

Patti

and it feels like, like people know this. And yet, I don't know, it's really hard to talk to people who haven't had kids. They understand it on some level, but not like, on the like, how hard it really is, and how long for how long and just, it's just really hard to understand until you're in it. And that's why I was really grateful, like so the second week, she was after she was born, like, and I had the night shift while my husband would sleep, you know, and I would, I had like, every night scheduled calls with friends who, who are parents, and most of them had been like, kind of new parents too, because a lot of friends had babies like right before me. And yeah, it was just so good to talk to someone who would like really understood it, like really got it, how hard it is. And also to give some hope that it gets better. Because yeah, it's not talked about enough. And even though like I was very educated with all this stuff, I you know, follow a lot of postpartum and pregnancy, you know, accounts and stuff. So it's like, I know, it wasn't like a total shock to me. But still, I'm like my personal life as far as like close friends and stuff. It's not talked about enough, you know?

Tanya Tringali

Yeah. Well, you're here helping change that because I think podcasts are such a huge player in this discussion, because it's something people can do privately and hear somebody's personal story. And come out of that just simply having listened to an episode not feeling alone or feeling what their experience is unique. I remember telling you often, despite your struggles, that were very real, and very intense, that there was nothing that you were saying that other people who came before you hadn't said, you were experiencing many things in your own unique way at your own level of intensity, for sure. Which is why sometimes, as I said, and when I introduced you that, I did worry whether or not I could be a really helpful part of your team. And looking back, I'm so grateful that I didn't, that I didn't give up on you or what we were doing. But I did worry, because you had there was an intensity to yours that I hadn't experienced many times. But I had to remind myself of my role and all the resources that you did have in place and continue to throw additional resources and tips your way, which is why I say you were just that was, that's what makes you so unique to me, is that somebody who was experiencing things as intensely as you were, I would imagine would be much more paralyzed. And you would never actually, at least from where I sit, paralyzed, you had this incredible way of hearing me. And in the moment, I would think she thinks I'm absolutely nuts that I just made whatever suggestion I made, she's so not into it. And then you would come back to me hours or the next day with a Marco Polo or a text or whatever, and tell me that you did it. And that most things, you know, you understood where I was coming from with that. One thing that comes to mind that I just think is so adorable to picture. I wonder if you know what I'm gonna say already?

Patti

No.

Tanya Tringali

Is when we were getting a little bit further postpartum. And you were starting to express concerns about like, how do I go back to my professional life? And I was like, You were you were starting to feel a little anxious about having not touched your instruments.

Patti

Oh, yeah.

Tanya Tringali

And I told you to play your violin to your baby, that you needed to let your baby in on that piece of who you are, and that it would be profound for your baby. And it took you a little while, but you finally did it. And the other thing I remember that just came on the heels of that is, in my gut, I knew that you were someone who would enjoy being a mother, as soon as your baby could show you that they appreciated you by smiling and things like that. And both of those things worked out really well. And that's I started to see a lot of corner turning once you got into that zone.

Patti

You know, but a lot of people say that, that, you know, you appreciate it more when the baby smiles or whatever. And I always just thought it was like a whatever. Because, you know, when she was born, she was really cute. And it did seem like she would react to us like she'd make funny faces and other things. And so I was like, I don't know, she's plenty interactive already. But yeah, I didn't really realize like how much that would shift when she started smiling. Like, oh my gosh, it's like the whole world, like, shifts, but but also it was because in the beginning, I felt very much like she didn't know me from Adam, like, I wasn't mom, like I was just some other person who was taking care of her and probably the person in our household who was taking care of her the least. Because, you know, my husband was really doing the bulk of it at first and really bonding with her. And then my mom came and kind of took over and my mom was like baby whisperer and amazing with her. And, and I needed that, you know, but it also made me feel like she doesn't even know who I am. She doesn't know that I'm Mom, we're not even breastfeeding. Like, I'm not special. And so yeah, it took a while for me to actually feel like we had that kind of bond that she actually like, started to prefer me or at least like recognize who I am. And that came more when like my mom left and like it was just us. I think we had some more time together just us. But...

Tanya Tringali

Those were very interesting moments, actually, when there were periods of time between when your husband went back to work when your mom couldn't come at one point when she thought she was going to all that stuff. We had to try to gear you up to be confident, safe and minimally content to be alone with the baby. And you always did a little better than you expected to do. So a lot of the anxiety and worry is pre emptive. And then the reality of the situation most times was way better. Of course, every parent and baby have their bad days where the baby's particularly fussy or whatever. And you would have a couple times where you were like I couldn't nap at all and I desperately needed to nap and you would have another downturn, but many of those days were better than you thought they would be. And I think that's a really interesting point for people to hear is a lot of anxiety and depression, especially in the perinatal period is worrying about what ifs, you know, and not what's actually happening in the moment. So I think that's where the reprieve comes.

Patti

Yes, it's true. And I was gonna say my biggest fearwith taking care of the baby by myself was that I would fall asleep, while holding her or something was that I would dangerously fall asleep from lack of sleep, that was definitely my biggest fear. And that's why I was so obsessed with like trying to get sleep. And also well, and also that I wouldn't be getting enough sleep. And so I would do something like, I wouldn't be in the right mind and do something dangerous. But you know what I mean? Like, because it really messes with you, and I'm a person who would typically get like nine hours of sleep before this. So it was really hard for me to adjust to that. But thankfully, that never happened. I mean, there were some really rough days. But yeah, like, that never happened. I never like felt like I was actually going to fall asleep. There was always someone around enough or I was able to like get enough of a break.

We hope you're enjoying the mother wit podcast. If you are, please rate us and leave a review in iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to your podcast. Thanks so much. Now back to the show.

Tanya Tringali

Hey, everyone, it's me, Tanya, your host here at the mother whip podcast. You know, I sometimes invite my clients on the show to talk about their birth stories and postpartum experiences. But I want to tell you a little bit more about what those clients and I actually do together. I started mother wit to help people in the perinatal period achieve their health and wellness goals. That means whether you're hoping to conceive and struggling with high blood pressure, or high blood sugar, or you're having trouble managing anxiety, or depression and the postpartum period, or maybe you just need support and advocacy between prenatal or postpartum visits, I can help get a discount on your first consultation with me at Motherwitmaternity.com. Using the code first console 10% off. That's one 0% symbol, all one word, I'm looking forward to working with you. And maybe having you on the show too.

Patti

I did a lot of preparation for labor, right? Because I wanted a natural like medic medication, free childbirth. So I did a lot of preparation for that. And one of the things that really got me through was thinking instead of saying like, I can't do this, to say, I am doing this, like I am doing this right now. And that really helped to get me through labor. And at some point, I realized that that also helped me get through motherhood, because I would constantly think I can't do this, like, you know, she'd be crying and I couldn't soothe her or something. And I, I can't do this, I can't do this. And then I would think I am doing this like one hour at a time like I am changing her diaper right now. And I am giving her the bottle and like, you know, try you try not to think too far ahead. And just getting by day by day, and then all of a sudden, two months later, it was like things really started to turn for the better at that point. I feel like that's when I started to get on the upswing. Two months in started to feel a little better. But I don't think we've mentioned yet so far that I was on Zoloft after a week. And that definitely made a huge difference.

Tanya Tringali

I totally was about to go there. And that moment, I thought the same thought you did because it made me say, you know, we can never know, of course the sample size of one is just that way we can never really know what it would have been like with or without. But the vast majority of my clients who do start medications do feel that the medications work. I mean, and that's just wonderful. That to me was the day that I remember being with you in crisis.

Patti

Yeah, yeah. And it was I remember, I just woke up and I was like in crisis, because that's another thing that was the mornings were the worst for me. Well, late at night was also bad when I had the night shift. But I would wake up and instantly have this feeling of dread. Like, oh, I have to go through another day. And I don't know how that day is going to turn out. And I have to keep doing this. You know. So the mornings were always really rough. And yeah, I woke up and I just got into this. Yeah, crisis, you know, spiral. I don't remember exactly what was said. Or if you were the one who brought up medication, but I instantly was like, Yes,

Tanya Tringali

I did bring it up. And the reason I remember that is because, you know, I also remember the day I met you when we did our initial free consult to see if we were a good fit. And I remember that day feeling the depths of your depression at that time. I felt that more than I felt the anxiety initially when I met you. And I remember just feeling a little like, you might be somebody who would really benefit from medication during pregnancy, but that you were not, you did not want to do that. And that was okay. I was happy to support you in whatever way you want it to be supported. But I the reason I remember this is because deep down I thought, I think she's going to need medication postpartum unless the fog lifts, which is such a rare thing to do in those early days.

Patti

Yeah, and I had never taken medication before for depression in the past. And I'm not opposed to it, I just, I've always been able to manage without, and I don't know, I'm a musician, I'm a I'm an artist. So it's like, it feels a little like, I don't know if I want something messing with that or to be dependent on something. But in this case, it was more like, how it would affect the baby. And like I said, I was just so paranoid about literally anything I was doing affecting the baby. And since it was also a lot of roller coaster up and downs that made me think that I could weather it, you know, because it wasn't just like a constant thing. And because I would have these like really crisis moments, but then it then I'd have all these days when I would be fine. It's like by the time, I would think like, Oh, I wish I could talk to my therapist today. But then by the time the appointment rolled around, it was like, I'm okay. You know, so it makes it hard to like jump on the medication bandwagon when you're experiencing that because, you know, the fog lifts temporarily. And you're like, Okay, why was I was I overreacting, maybe it's just like the pregnancy ups and downs. So that was rough. And I did think recently, when I was, you know, thinking about when we were talking about me coming on here. I was wondering to myself, like, what would have been? How would it have been different if I had started the medication prior to delivery? Like, how would that have affected things? I don't know.

Tanya Tringali

That we can't know.

Patti

Yeah, no. Or no, I was thinking like, maybe, with what I know, now, would I have made a different choice? You know?

Maybe Yeah

I don't know.

Tanya Tringali

I hear you. Well, what I remember about the day that you decided to start medication was that you were in crisis, it was one of those days where you woke up with that feeling of dread, it was particularly profound. And I think I literally just said, I think it might be time to consider medication. And you just said, Yes.

Patti

Yeah.

Tanya Tringali

I mean, there, you we did not have to talk about it, you were ready. And that spoke to me to the depths of where you were at.

Patti

Because I almost felt like I was ready to be checked in somewhere because it was that bad. Like, I just could not do this. And I needed to go somewhere where I wasn't gonna do this, like I was gonna run away, or something because I just, I didn't see a way out. And this was a week out, I still had to go through another week before my mom was going to come. And that was also really bad too, because it's like, I was almost like pleading with her over the phone every day to get see if she could come early. And like it was so bad. And everyone was worried about me.

Tanya Tringali

So tell us a little bit about what the timeline was like in terms of you starting to feel like the medication was affecting you positively. Because I think a lot of people wonder what that is like, and it is different for everyone. But I think people need to hear what it's like for different people.

Patti

You know, even just starting the medication helped. Because I knew I was doing something about it. Like, you know, and sometimes when you you feel like more in control, that helps, because I can hang on to that like, okay, it's gonna get better because I'm taking the medication, and that's going to help. I wrote in my notes week for mentally doing much better. But I don't know exactly what that means.

Tanya Tringali

Well, look, the words stand alone. That's three weeks later. So even if we don't have a ton of information, three weeks later, you said I'm mentally doing much better.

Patti

Yeah. And the previous week, I wrote feeling more like everything is going to be okay. That was when my mom got here. Because at least when my mom was here, I knew, like, even if I'm a mess, the baby would be taken care of like there was a huge relief when she got here because I knew she would just take over and nothing bad was gonna happen basically, like, you know, there was going to be no neglect or acts, you know, like, at least the baby would be okay. And I would be taken care of, you know, so there was some relief with that.

Tanya Tringali

What I think I remember about the medication kicking in and of course, because your mom came a week later, it gets a little muddy in terms of understanding like, is it because because of that, is it both Baba bah. But what I think we can attribute somewhat to you starting the medications was your ability to sleep steadily improved?

Patti

Yeah

Tanya Tringali

That was huge. And I don't know if that was because your mom was there the medication but it felt to me like it was an effect of the medication. And the highs and lows really levelled out slowly over time.

Patti

Well, and also, you know, also that week, I wrote first enjoyable tummy time, like, she was interacting more. A little was that when she was three weeks, so it's well as she was doing more things and like being, you know, having more fun, because that's the other thing, you know, you see all this stuff on Instagram and whatever. And you imagine what life is gonna be like with the baby. And like, I got all these educational toys, and I set up her nursery just so because I'm imagining all the activities we're gonna do together. And in the beginning, you can't really do any of that. There's really nothing. They don't do anything. And so that can be a little bit frustrating, too, because I'm not like the mom, I want to be yet like how I imagined it. And as she was able to interact a little more, it feels a little more like, okay, yeah, we're, I'm doing the thing. And it's going well, and it also kind of goes hand in hand with the baby's development, you know. But yeah, there was one day when she like, actually recognized me. And that was like, Oh, wow, like, okay, that meant something, you know, because usually, my mom would take care of her overnight, and I would come in the morning and see them and my mom would be holding be like, Oh, look, Mommy's here. And like, she would say something like, as if it was in the baby's voice, like the baby was excited to see me which clearly she wasn't, she was just like, sitting there. But then eventually, it did seem like that, you know?

Tanya Tringali

Deep down, you knew that you deserved and could have happiness. And that's why you kept fighting, like you didn't just throw in the towel and say, I'm destined to be depressed or anxious. And you, you know that you have this in you, and you will likely have it in you forever. But you knew how important it was to seek the tools needed to enjoy your baby and your family. And you prioritize that. And you did such a good job at doing that. And by the time we were wrapping up around 12 weeks, you had, I'm not saying it was perfect. And I would love you to provide a little update from about 12 weeks to now, which is about four months since we spoke last. But there was a world of difference, which I agree?

Patti

Yeah, that's why I said like two months, things started to turn around. And then like, yeah, by three months, it had really improved a lot. I feel like because I'd had these like major depressive episodes in the past, especially the one that was, like seven years ago, I knew I could get back from it. Like I had gotten back before. And in this time, I had a lot more motivation. Because it unlike before I couldn't, I feel like I actually got better, a lot faster. Because like two months, I was already starting to come out of it. And three months, I was like, okay, you know, things are a little bit more back to normal. Whereas before, it was months and months and months of me just being in like a pit of despair, and going to therapy every week, and just but I had to get better quickly before for my child, you know, because I also knew that like, not bonding with her or not paying attention to her or anything else that I might be doing, because I just can't get it together was going to be hurting her and we didn't have time. That's also why I was quick to jump on the medication because it's like, I knew we did not have time for me to just not be okay. And I remember my husband was also a little like, iffy about that. And it was good that we had you to provide like a good frame of reference. Because, you know, you said My experience was common, but he was reluctant for me to go on antidepressants because he thought, well, you know, it's only been a week, there's the baby blues and all that. You know, and we need to do to say like, yeah, she's she's really suffering, I work with a lot of people. And this is not normal, like to have that frame of reference was really important. Because it can be hard to know. It can be hard for me to know.

Tanya Tringali

And that's, you know, to go back to a point I wanted to make earlier when we talked about sleep when Okay, everybody needs sleep, everybody needs an emphasis on sleep. But for me as a clinician looking at different people not knowing not having a crystal ball and not knowing who's gonna get depressed and who's not. I need to help people sort out sleep because it provides me with so much information a little like how you can even say those times I did get some sleep I felt so much better. So every one across the board will say something like that. But people who are being deeply affected by the lack of sleep, but otherwise aren't dealing with a mood disorder are only dealing with baby blues, that difference is so much more dramatic. And it sticks with them because they kind of learn the skill and we get into a groove and things start to smooth out, as opposed to that up and down roller coaster. So that's a huge difference. And I think it's so critical that people think about all the factors that are involved, and come up with a game plan for how to not just poopoo it and keep pushing it off. Because I see that too. I've had many clients never go on meds who maybe should have, and I've had many clients not go on meds till more like eight weeks, and they're suffering. And they're suffering for much longer because they're, they're resistant, and that's okay, right. Again, everyone has the timeline, and I'm here to support everyone. But as an outsider, you kind of get this idea of the degree of suffering that you're watching somebody.

Patti

Yeah, I know, whenever I see people now talk about not wanting to go on meds, and I'm just like, in my head, I'm just like, just go on the meds, it helps so much. And you need that because I don't know, I maybe it's, it's a blessing that I had this previous experience because at least it's like, I know, my body. I know my mind. And I knew this was not okay, I knew this was beyond my depth, my ability to come back from it on my own, without some more intervention. Like I could tell that, because it wasn't just that I was sleep deprived. Obviously, it was that I couldn't bond with her. I, I felt like she would be better off without me. I, you know, there were so many times where I just thought like, I can't do this anymore. Like, like, I just can't I don't see a way out. Or that like I made this huge mistake, and there's no coming back from this, and I'm never gonna figure it out. There's all these thoughts. There's really dark thoughts, too, you know, and that is different, you know, and I knew that that is that can be normal, not normal, but like, like, it wasn't a fault of me. Like, it wasn't like, I'm not a terrible person for having these thoughts. Like I knew like, this is what happens. But that didn't make it any easier to not have these thoughts anyway. Especially when I felt like, I didn't know how to be a good mom, because I didn't know how to deal with babies. And my husband was so good with her. And my mom was so good with her. And I was just like, every time my mom would leave to like, go get food or something, she would just have this meltdown. And I couldn't it's like, why is this always happened with me? And I would just lose it because it just felt like I would never learn or figure it out.

Tanya Tringali

So what's it like now? I mean, in the four months since we last connected? How do you feel about motherhood at this point?

Patti

It's, it's going well now. I mean, it's not easy, of course. But I feel like even when I struggle now it feels more like well, but everyone is this level of you know, struggling with motherhood. Although, I mean, sometimes it gets a little low, I am still on Zoloft. And and I want to continue on it until at least I have some more things sorted out with child care and such some more support before I consider weaning off of it. But like, I mean, it's helped so much. And it's just amazing to see her grow. And I feel competent. Like I'm doing a good job, at least as much as anyone can feel like that as a mother.

Tanya Tringali

Are you back to working?

Patti

Not really. I mean, I mostly work from home anyway. So it's flexible. I've done a few like music gigs or projects from home. But I haven't really been able to sort out childcare yet, which is a bummer. But it's the daycares are all full or she's too young for them. And it's been hard to find babysitters who are available to just kind of get into that. But yeah, that's the next thing I really have to be working on obviously, because that is going to help so much. Just to to feel like myself again and that way.

Tanya Tringali

You mentioned before you started meds, a fear of the medication sort of blunting your creativity, things like that is can you speak to the reality of the situation or you know, I don't know if you've engaged in creativity to feel like you've assessed that, but it's not.

Patti

So it's interesting. I've talked with the psychiatrist that I check in with every month about this too, because we've adjusted my dosage quite a few times. And that was always a concern. It doesn't blow on my creativity. It's more like I used to always have really big feelings and be a very emotional person and that's also part of you know, being a musician and all right, I can access that very easily. Which also probably, you know, it's like the straight highway to depression as well, you know, this, these things are all interconnected, but like, you know, I'll watch a movie or something. And it's really an easy cry, you know, like, it's really easy for me to have cathartic crying and stuff like that too, in addition to the depressive type of crying, but just like happy cry or other emotions, you know, happy emotions. And when I was pregnant, obviously, that was like, off the charts, like, but after I went on Zoloft, I noticed that, you know, of course, it was taming the lows, but I also couldn't, it's like, I couldn't seem to access that anymore. Like, I would only cry if I was like, really upset or something, but not like happy tears, or I would feel a little dead inside. In terms of like, happier emotions sometimes. But that has definitely come around. And maybe I also went back a dose or so.

Tanya Tringali

So you not only went up dose you've gone back down as well.

Patti

Yeah, Yeah, we went up for a while and then went back down a little bit. Because, yeah, that were worried me. I didn't like that. That feelingwhere it was like, I would feel intellectually happy but not emotionally in the same way that I'm accustomed to feeling it as a person who feels big feelings. If that makes sense. It's really hard to explain.

Tanya Tringali

No, I hear you, because what the thing I'm thinking about, as you say it is, obviously it feels I'm sure for even for our listeners, but I don't want to sugarcoat anything. So I'm glad that you said it. When you said I felt a little dead inside, I had a moment of being like, oh, that's gonna scare people away from medication. And it might, but this is about a conversation. And that's fine. But what I wonder is if it's not as much debt inside as as much as it is just simply drawing the comparison of what you used to access in terms of highs and lows, and it being very different.

Patti

Yeah. And I didn't realize that after I said, I was like, oh, I should have maybe put it that way.

Tanya Tringali

I'm not cutting that. I think it's very real and honest. And I'm glad you said it and that we're unpacking it.

Patti

I just remember that phrase, because I said it in therapy, because, you know, I was like, oh, yeah, well, of course, I love her. And I want what's best for her, but I feel dead inside. Like just like it was weird to understand like to also like, because in therapy is also like unpacking like that I love my baby. Even though I was going through all this stuff like that. It's hard, because it's hard to feel like I loved her when I was having all these scary thoughts about motherhood and not bonding. And she had to like kind of point out to me like that these actions were proof that I loved her, even though I didn't feel the love in the way that I expected to, you know what I mean? So it's kind of a little bit like that, like, you know, love is showing up. And, and all of that not necessarily like the gooey, gooey like, feeling warm inside, I guess is what I mean is feels a little bit like I'm missing. But that is coming back. I'm not I'm able to still feel that way. It's just, it's been a little bit of a trade off for a while, but it's definitely coming back over time. And but that's also why don't want to go up on my dose if I don't have to, because there was some concern that maybe I should. But I definitely don't want to lose that progress that I've made there.

Tanya Tringali

We want to stay on the lowest effective dose, and it makes sense that what happened for you was like, you passed a certain threshold that was not okay, so you came back down. And you have found your sweet spot?

Patti

Well, I asked because I was like, you know, what is the goal here? Because are we trying to get me to the baseline that I was before all of this because I was always a bit tumultuous with my emotions and stuff. So I don't think there's a, it's realistic to think that that's just gonna completely subside. I'm still an emotional person. So I just want to make sure that I'm functioning enough that, you know, the, the bad doesn't outweigh the good or whatever. So like, even though I said that about the meds, like obviously, I'm still on them, and I still, you know, want to be on them because it's making, you know, it helped me be a better mother. And that's more important to me than being able to cry at movies or whatever, right now. But yeah, it's just interesting, because I think everyone has a different experience with it, though, and how it makes them feel.

Tanya Tringali

And that's why I collect stories. And that's why there's not just one episode of someone, someone's journey through a mental health situation that that interfaces with the perinatal period, because there are so many unique versions and I just want people to hear one of those versions that speaks to them. And it's very likely that as people listen, they hear one or two or three things from this episode and why or two or three from this other one, and put that all together. And suddenly this is really resonating. Okay, as we move towards wrapping up, I would love it. If we come full circle back to that very first thing you said that we would table, which was can you just tell people what your layers of support were because I don't remember what they all were, I just remember that you, I'm not even sure if at the beginning, you ever like kind of cohesively told me, but every so often you would reference something and I would go, Oh, she's doing that, too. Wow. That too. So just tell us what some of those things were and what you think about each of them? And then we'll go ahead and wrap it up.

Patti

Yeah. So I startedwith therapy, I guess finding a therapist. I didn't find a psychiatrist like it was just a regular therapist, I ended up having to have a psychiatrist person later to manage the medication. And actually, that was really helpful as well, because the way they talk through everything was different than the way the therapist would. And it was very helpful, it's still helpful, because I still see them every month. But you know, it was, well, I had my mom, the original plan was for her to come for two weeks. She ended up staying for like six weeks, then she would take a week off and come back like so she was in and out for quite a while to help. But we really needed that I needed that. Sowe didn't like you had some sort of a peer support group thing. Oh, it was virtual. That's right. It was like a virtual doula class group. That's right. And I thought that was nice, because you know, being virtual, it was easier for me. And it was also pregnancy, like childbirth education and stuff. Every week, we would meet as all people in the same,you know, gestation or whatever, yeah, as me. And so that was really helpful. And then, but mostly, I wanted it for Postpartum Support, because I figured that was what I really needed. And the group ended up kind of like shifting or disbanding around that time anyway, it wasn't as helpful as I mean, it was still helpful. Like, I feel like just having lots of avenues is helpful, because you can only you know, sometimes, like one therapy session a week isn't enough. So and you just having multiple people to talk to or, you know, points of view, and all of that. See, I did have that. And I, we had a meal train. We didn't have a traditional meal train, because no one was local, although a few friends did bring us like lasagna, but we had like a DoorDash meal train. And that was so helpful, because I was not in any frame of mind to be worrying about food at all. So like having the DoorDash like, was such a mental load, like off of our, of off of my mind, like, but having you is like probably the biggest one because it's good to have different kinds of support. Because each one brings like something different to the table. You know, like, even when I was still pregnant, we talked through a lot of pregnancy and delivery stuff, I was making all these debates about whether I should have an induction or not. And like that was just really helpful to have that like really knowledgeable perspective, because you don't get that from an OBGYN. I mean, my team there was great, but, you know, it's just how it is in this country. And it was just really good to have someone that I could just always bounce ideas or questions off of and like, especially on postpartum because it was like, you know, even though I had these friends that I would call up on it was another source of support, I guess. But um, you know, you can only do that so much before you feel like you're dumping on your friends or, and you know, not all of them were qualified to help me, you know, if they hadn't been through postpartum depression, like, they'd say, like, oh, it gets better when this and this and this and it's like, maybe for you, like, because you're only dealing with this, but I'm also dealing with this. And of course, I would be afraid to say some things to them, that I wouldn't be afraid to say to you, like, or even, you know, to say to my mom, or my husband, or the work we you and I did together was like, a lot of validating that I needed but also tough love when I needed it. And I couldn't get that from anyone else, not like effective tough love, but it's just blows my mind to think about how much support I put in place for myself. And I still had such a hard time. You know, like I really prepared for this but part of me thought maybe like how pregnancy was easier for me than I expected and how the you know, labor was easier than expected that maybe I was doing all those preparing and it wasn't actually going to be so bad or at least because I prepared it wouldn't be so bad. And it still was so bad. So...

Tanya Tringali

And what you're really saying is I called in the troops on this one area, we can look back and say all that work I did for pregnancy and birth. Okay? That was, quote unquote, wrong word but wasted, but you couldn't know. At the end of the day, everything you put into place for postpartum, you needed I needed it. Yeah, you needed it and possibly more but you you called in the troops, you utilized everyone and everything to its fullest. And you did come out on the other side. And I am so proud of you. And I am so grateful to you for being willing to speak so openly and candidly. And honestly, about your experience. From the from the moment we wrapped up in the back of my mind, I knew that one day I would call on you and ask you if you are willing to speak and I didn't know what you would say. And I'm so grateful that You have given us this time today. So your big message, is it? Is it the case that your big messages prepare for postpartum?

Patti

Yeah. Because, you know, I, most people are oppressed when I say I didn't have an epidural or whatever, but it's like, yes, okay, um, I'm really surprised that I did that too. But like, that's only one day and I got through it. But postpartum is so much harder. Like, it's lots of pain over and over, in different ways.

Tanya Tringali

Its a very different kind of pain. And people have such a hard time changing gears and seeing a part of their future that we only want to imagine being beautiful and full of love, again, akin to marriage, we want to assume marriage is just going to be this lovely, lovely, lovely, better roses. And it's hard. And so is having a baby. And that's why you did the work. You did.

Patti

Yeah. It's hard having your entire like the way you are as a person shift. You know, the way you view yourself. Yeah. And that that part is still not navigating. Yeah. Im still alive.

Tanya Tringali

Okay. Thank you so, so, so much for talking to us today.

Patti

Absolutely. Yeah.

Tanya Tringali

Thank you for listening to the mother whip podcast. If any of the issues we discussed today resonate with you or your experience, I'd love to hear from you. Leave me a voicemail at 917-310-0573. Or better yet, email me a voice memo at Tanya at Motherwitmaternity.com. I really want to hear what worked for you what didn't work, what support you'd wish you had, how you got through the tough times how you advocated for yourself, or especially any tips you want to share with our listeners. I want to hear all of it. And if you'd really like to work together, you can get a discount on your first consultation with me at Mother wit maternity.com using the code first console 10% off. That's one 0% symbol, all one word. Okay. That's all. That's wonderful being in community with you all. Thanks again for listening and see you next time.

Unknown Speaker

And remember, listeners, nothing we discussed on this show should ever be considered medical advice. Please speak to your local provider about anything that comes up in this show that resonates with you and your needs and your health care.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai