Tanya

Thank you guys for joining me today. Um, I have with me Dori, uh, a dear friend and someone who has a great birth story to tell a home birth story and her midwife Martine, um, who's here to contribute to the story because as we learned when Anne shared her story, sometimes we're like in labor land and it can be very hard to, um, I don't know, get the details straight for lack of a better word. Dori, do us a favor and introduce yourself.

Dori

Sure, so I'm Dori and I live in Brooklyn with my husband, Joe and my two girls, Layla and Avery, and our cat Bellatrix who goes by belly. Uh, <laugh> who's an important part of my birth story and my relationship with Martine <laugh>. I am a social worker and a therapist. I, let's see, I grew up in Little Rock Arkansas. I'm the youngest of three children, myself and yeah. That's I don't know what else do you wanna know? <laugh>

Tanya

Oh, I'll ask you great questions here in a moment that I'll do for now. Martine, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Martine

So I'm Martine, I'm a midwife. I've been a midwife since 2000. I love it. It's called my name. I've took that calling and haven't regretted it and just love what I do. I worked in lots of different settings during midwifery in all kinds of capacities and had a home birth practice, which I had the pleasure of working with Dori and Joe. Um, for 17 years, I did home births in New York city in the five boroughs and loved it.

Tanya

Can you tell us also a little bit about your organization?

Martine

Okay. So I started a nonprofit Foundation for Advancement of Haitian Midwives in 2013 and incorporated in 2014, we really helped build capacity for the midwives in Haiti, Andy, uh, students, so that they can do the amazing work that they do. So in a country of 11 million people, half of them being women and under 400 midwives in the whole country, we really need more midwives. So to be able to have Haiti have the same ability to provide, uh, the population with midwifery care is invaluable in that midwifery model of care. So we do a lot of community outreach to the general public, with education. We do a lot of work around gender based violence. We do a lot of continuing education for the midwives and, um, yeah, that's, that's it in a nutshell.

Tanya

Awesome. Thanks for sharing. Alright. So Dori, back to you, I wanna ask you a few kind of lead in questions so that we can get a sense of how you got here, right? Because again, this is uncommon still in American culture and most cultures actually at this point in time. So I'm kind of curious if you can tell us a little bit about what you thought about, or if you ever even thought about birth when you were young and, you know, if you knew what a midwife was and how you thought of that, and just ultimately like how you became knowledgeable about birth at all before you were pregnant.

Dori

<laugh> Well, so growing up, I had no idea what a midwife was. I think through college and in my early twenties, I had no idea what a midwife was. Uh, and I gave birth very little thought. It always was like something you do in a hospital. And something that seemed really scary and something that was like, I don't know, I don't know, dangerous is too strong of a word, but something that like you needed to be in a hospital for, because it was risky. Uh, and then my sister got pregnant. My sister's seven years older than me and she and her husband did a lot of research and they were still in Arkansas at the time and they decided to go with a home birth and I thought they were insane. And I was like, oh my God, this is so dangerous. What are you thinking? How can you do this to my, you know, my niece or nephew? Um, it's so scary and they, but I also really wanted to be there to support my sister. At that time. I really wanted to be like a supportive person, a doula to her, cuz it was really special to have my first niece or nephew being born. Um, and so I went, when I was in Little Rock with them, I watched The Business of Being Born with them and kind of got introduced to that whole idea of home birth and that, you know, the culture around it and still was a little bit skeptical, but they became really like strong advocates for home birth. And in Arkansas, it's really hard to find a midwife who can do a home birth. Um, but they became really strong advocate. So I did some reading and learned about it and was like, okay, this is actually not dangerous.

This is not risky. You don't have to be in a hospital. This is a good option. And then I met you Tanya from the gym. And that's when I really kind of learned what a midwife was and all of the different types of things that midwives do. And I remember when I finally got pregnant a couple years after knowing you, uh, I say finally, we got pregnant very quickly, but when I finally decided that I was almost ready to have a child <laugh> and got pregnant, I remember saying to you like, oh, I don't know if I wanna have a hospital birth. My sister had a home birth and it was very, very positive experience. So I'm considering that, or, you know, maybe a, maybe a birthing center and you essentially were like, if you wanna have a home birth or if you even are considering having a home birth, you need to reach out to these people immediately because they fill up immediately. And you sent me an email with three people

Tanya

I believe my exact words were.

Dori 

mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tanya

I believe my exact words were something like sometimes they're booked by the time you have a positive pregnancy test <laugh>

Dori 

Yeah, you definitely lit a fire. Uh, I was not.I was not sure at all. And I remember going into that first meeting with JJ B midwifery and not being sure at all, but then once I met Martine and Karen, I was like, oh, these are my people. Like I, midwives and social workers are not the same, but there is a lot of overlap and I felt really comfortable. Uh, and that is how I made my decision. Oh no, there's another part of it actually. I did go to the birthing center in Brooklyn for an orientation session and I went after work and I remember the drive there, there was horrible traffic and it caused me so much anxiety just to get to the orientation. Cause I was like, oh, I'm gonna be late. I'm gonna be late. I was like, I can't risk driving to this birthing center in the middle of labor or a hospital in the middle of labor. Like I wanna stay put, I want people coming to me. I do not have the capacity to deal with that kind of traffic anxiety during labor. So that was what really sealed the deal for the home birth

Tanya

Cool. Martine, similar question for you. You know, midwifery education in this country is woefully inadequate when it comes to teaching midwives about homebirth, right. Which is ironic since people who think they know something about midwifery, but generally don't immediately connect midwifery to homebirth. They say things like, oh, you're a midwife. Does that mean you deliver babies at home? Right. When the truth is many of us do not. Um, in fact, most of us in terms of the type of midwife that you and I are do not. So how is it that you manage to come out of midwifery school with I'm assuming, but correct me if I'm wrong minimal to no exposure to home birth and then end up doing it, like, how did all of this happen for you?

Martine

Okay. So it was on that route of should I, should I not become a midwife? So I, you know, I spent a little bit of time at Maternidad la Luz in Texas to see if I really wanted to do this. And, but I knew I didn't wanna be a CPM. And I was like, was telling Dori I'm a diehard new Yorker. So, um, and I believe in being licensed where I practice and then I went to downstate orientation. Once didn't sign up, then went another time and I guess I should do it. I'm not getting younger. So I think I came, I went into it knowing that I wanted to do home births and I knew what I would need to supplement what I did, what I was already exposed to. Because in that time I  said I was a professional labor support person before the doula epidemic came about and everyone, you know, got certified to be doulas.

And I attended home births. I've worked in freestanding birth centers. So I kind of did the spectrum of different hospital birth centers, hun home. But I just knew that what helped me was also not making clinical judgements and being a support person by people's side and also making clinical judgements, having been a nurse for so long and just putting the two together. But I always say, but I was not a midwife. So midwifery education was valuable, but like, um, the CM and CNM routes, they don't  teach you enough about out of hospital birth and you still do need experience. So I knew when I came out, I needed to get really good hands on experience. So I worked at a busy inner city hospital, um, and you know, saw a lot, did a lot. And then, you know, when I felt okay, um, I said, this is it because I did not sign up to do this, you know, to work in a hospital.

Tanya

Cool. Well, I'm so glad that you were called to do the work that you did for so long.

Tanya 

Alright Dori, I want you to go ahead and jump into your story and I'm gonna leave it to you. Like where you feel like you need to pick up because right. The start of labor, I think a lot of people listening who are still pregnant, maybe with their first baby, don't understand that it's not always such a clear line in the sand, the way movies make it out to be. And I don't remember the details of your startup of labor, but so feel free to pick whatever place the story begins for you.

Martine

I was curious too, if you could start with, um, like talk a little bit about the pregnancy and what you thought you got, that you were looking for versus going to a hospital before you even get to having the baby.

Dori

Well, so I was very spoiled cuz I was still going to CrossFit regularly and seeing Tanya very, very regularly. And so I had Tanya plus you Martine and Karen for my visits. Um, oh gosh. Why did I not want a hospital birth? I think I just wanted to be treated more humanely. I wanted my visits to be meaningful. I wanted to know my providers, the idea that I would be in a practice meeting with seven to 10 different providers and then unsure of who would be delivering, just felt really stressful and really impersonal. And I didn't like that idea at all. Um, so I was looking for a more personalized experience and then I was really lucky. I had a very easy pregnancy, not a lot of issues with that said pregnancy, especially the first time is really overwhelming. It's really scary. Any little thing that feels different? You wonder, am I supposed to feel this way or is this a problem? Um, so it was wonderful that I could reach out to you Tanya, as a friend, this is before you had your official business doing what you do now, but it was also amazing to be able to reach out to you Martine, via text,  through your call line, if it was, if it was serious enough to reach out that way and speak to the providers that I knew, it was one of the two of you and you would answer my questions. You would calm me down. You would tell me not to Google anything. I remember when I had placenta previa kind of, I don't even think you call it that at 20, at the 20 week scan, I of course started to panic. And I remember Martine was like, do not Google this, do not go online. <laugh> don't research this. Uh, and I listened because I followed the rules and then I talked to both of you and you helped me to feel like, okay, this is fine. We'll be able to navigate whatever it is.

Martine

There's so much information out there it's really reading the right things. And I think sometimes people just read anything and then go with that. And that's what sticks in your mind. So I'm always telling people not cause I'd like people to read stuff and to keep me abreast of the latest research or whatnot. But when you're like I saw on so-and-so's blog, I'm like, I really don't wanna hear <laugh>. It's like, I wanna hear real stuff.

Tanya

So I don't remember this at all. Like I'm amazed at how little I remember at this point, but I'm gonna guess that what you had was what's often called a low lying placenta. Does that sound familiar or did they? Yeah, because this is probably one of my biggest bugga boos in terms of where people start to reach out to me for extra support is because providers just like throw out this piece of information. The person freaks, Googles thinks all kinds of horrible thoughts. And the truth is like at 20 weeks, when this is seen, it is pretty darn close to an incidental finding. And I would put nearly my entire, all my money on it that it will resolve. But this is such a chronic starting point of fear for people, you know, say somebody gets through the early part of pregnancy, their genetic testing comes out fine. Everything's fine. They've they think they're out of that quote unquote window of miscarriage, all those things. This is like the next most common thing that starts someone off down the anxiety path that we create as providers by not communicating clearly about this. That's such a big bugaboo of mine. So it's interesting. I don't remember this in your history.

Dori 

What's interesting. I had to get for labs because you guys don't do labs obviously. And I got the results and I think the doctor who went through the labs with me, no,

Martine

We don't do sonos. We do the labs.

Dori

Oh, sorry. Excuse me. <laugh> the doctor kind of explained what was happening. And I remember leaving and I was with Joe and I remember starting to feel that anxiety well up. And then Martine, you called me on my way home. <laugh> you called me like immediately. And you said, we just got these results. I wanted to talk to you about what this means. And I didn't know that I would get that kind of care from working with a small home birth midwifery practice, but I'm so grateful that I had it because I know how regular doctor's offices are. You get results through your email and then you wait hours at least days more likely until you actually talk to someone who, who knows. Um, and so that was huge. That was, I just can't overstate the importance of having that kind of personalized and individual attention. It was really, really helpful.

Um, so yes, skipping ahead. I had a great educational experience from the home birth classes, Joe and I did those, um, at home in our apartment. Uh, and so I knew that labor could be a long thing and that labor was not just, you know, early labor at least could be a long thing. Um, so I remember waking up in the middle of the night, of course, this was supposed to be my last day of work. I was working right up until the very end because I'm type a and like to get everything done. Um, so this was the Friday, the Friday was my last day of work. I woke up in the middle of the night, Thursday night into Friday morning with contractions and I knew they were contractions. Like I had been having Braxton Hicks. I'd been having tension and I knew what that felt like.

And then I knew that these felt different. Um, so I got very, very excited and of course waited until maybe six, 6:00 AM, 7:00 AM to text or call. And whoever answered, I don't remember told me to go back to sleep <laugh> to not wake up and to not be excited and to go back to sleep, which was crazy advice, but I tried to take it. Um, and then <laugh>, I was like, how can I go back to sleep? I'm in labor. Um, but I tried to go back to sleep and I did, I slept for a few more hours. And then I really tried to take the advice of just like resting, relaxing, not getting, not focusing on labor too much, cuz I didn't know how long this early labor stage was gonna last. So I called into work, started watching the west wing, started binge watching a TV, went to the grocery store to get my popsicles and my coconut water and all the things that I thought that I'd wanna have at home.

None of which I wanted later in labor because I didn't want anything in my body. Um, so yeah, that Friday was really just a relaxing day of TV. As the day progressed, the contractions got more intense. They got closer together, but I remember it was probably around six or 7:00 PM that I was like, okay, this is starting to feel like, like real labor  and we called the line and you guys listened to me actually go, like you talked to me on the phone until I had a contraction and listened to me on the phone. And I don't think, I can't remember if you came right away. I think you might have come in the next couple of hours. Um,

Martine

yes we,

Dori

yeah. So I think it was close enough to the point where you could come. And so at that point I was getting like, oh this is happening. And I have to say it in the back of my mind this whole time, my sister had this very wonderful home birth experience. It was like 12 hours. So pretty short from the start of labor to the baby being born. And so I was kind of like, oh, I'm already, I'm already, at that point, I'm gonna have this baby so soon. Uh, and that was not the case <laugh> so he came over, um, I don't know, nine, 10, a couple hours after I had called. And I just remember immediately starting to feel like, oh my gosh, I called you too soon. I'm not gonna have the baby. Like what are we gonna do here? It's late. You're gonna be here all night. I remember feeling anxious almost as soon as you guys arrived, because I felt like I had done the wrong thing and I had called you too early. Um,

Martine

And Joe kept offering us different foods. <laugh> different things for like,

Tanya

He, he are you, he had prepared like a spread of like foods to feed the midwives?

Martine

He kept like pulling things out. You want some of this? You want some of this?

Dori

Well, so both liked to host parties. And so I think we kind of jumped into host mode. And so for me, I was like, well, this is a crappy party. There's no baby <laugh> there's no baby yet. And he was like, well just give food that, that tracks for our relationship.

Tanya

I wanna unpack two things that have been said here for the first is I would love it if Martine would just speak to cuz I think there's the, there's a real art to this and midwives do it really well. And that is discerning where someone's at in labor over the telephone. In fact, I've written scenarios that I do with students at both universities that I work for so that students can, and I act them out myself just for the record, like a bunch of us do this. And we like really give them the experience of having to figure out what decisions to make based on the way somebody's presenting on the phone in labor. So I think this is a really interesting thing for Martine to talk a little bit about. And then the next thing just so I don't forget is Dori. I wanna hear a little bit more about this anxiety that you felt about having called too early. Cuz I suspect a lot of people are thinking and feeling these thoughts and I have some thoughts about it myself. So Martine,

Martine

I think the number one, um, thing that comes to mind is the relationship you have with somebody and just knowing who they are and how you can approach their labor. So when is the time to call or when's the time to come is variable. So, you know, I know there's all these, um, childbirth ed things, 5, 1, 1, the, this the 3, 1, 1, what I'm like, it's a human having a baby that let's pay attention to what she's actually doing or saying. So sometimes if a partner answers and the laboring person can't get on the phone and talk, um, sometimes that's a sign <laugh> that you should maybe come or sometimes it's a sign that you should come. Not because so much that they're in active labor, but they will want you to come. So they really trying not to let you know that they're early on in labor. So having the partner be next to them. So at least you can hear what's going on is helpful or actually talking to the person and seeing what's going on. So it's kind of figuring out. So I always said, it's never wrong to call and it's never too early to be there it's is what the person needed. And some people need some, uh, some people there's always the watch pot won't boil. And as the, the other side of it, it won't start boiling if you don't watch it <laugh> so, you know, some people need to feel that safety that everybody's there, you found parking, everything's good that, uh, you know, and they're in the house and they'll take off. So it really depends. And then I've had people that sound really active and tell me, don't come and you know, better than not, you know, I've had some been parked in front of people's houses and then when they decide, well, maybe you should come over. And I was like, okay, I'm downstairs. You know, it's like, how did you know? It's like, well, <laugh>, you know? Yeah. So it's the relationship. So it's no, um, there's no right or wrong to it. It is, it takes what time it takes. So, you know, I said it bounces itself off the bim bam, thank you, maam. You got there, the baby flew out before you got there. And then the one that you lived with them for two days, <laugh> it is what it is, you know? Yep. And then sometimes that's the, the, just, we had a client's husband that just wrote a, a, a real nice story about his experience becoming a parent, but he said Martine left. She had other things to do. I thought that was hilarious. She was really in really super early labor. So I went and did my other visits in the neighborhood, but of course you have your ears pierced and you're ready to come back in our heartbeat. And you know, she needed to, you know, that little time to just kind of rest and turn the corner, um, to come back. So it's really just really paying attention and building that relationship and that trust between each other is really invaluable.

Tanya

That was a fantastic article. And we will link it in the show notes, cuz I think it's a great read for our listeners. Um, okay. So Dori, I just, I don't wanna belabor it too much, but I want you to tell me a little bit more about the roots of that feeling of anxiety, because it reminds me a little bit of, and I don't know if it's just kind of like an outgrowth of what it would've been like if you'd been in a hospital based setting with, with a big practice, but you know, I see all the time clients that are so resistant or reluctant to call and bother their provider. And I almost feel like, oh, this is the home birth version of that, but I don't know if that's the root of it or not.

Dori

Not. Yeah. I don't know that it was like, I didn't feel like I was well, did I feel maybe I just didn't know. I guess it is actually probably <laugh> I don't want people to have to stay up all night if I'm not gonna have a baby until you know, the next day I want everyone to get rest. And so I think there was part of that of like needing to perform like, oh, it's my job to have the baby now. And I'm not having the baby yet. And I think that that watched pot never boils analogy really felt true. I think I felt like pressure as soon, even though I wanted you to be there and I called obviously, cuz I wanted you to be there. I think I did feel pressure once you were there. I was like, okay, well it's time. And then it felt like everything slowed down. Cause that whole day I felt like it was progressing and it was going and it was getting stronger and faster. And then I remember you guys came and then I was like, oh my contractions aren't they're not happening as frequently. Like why are they not happening? <laugh>

Martine

I think we focus so much on the, I want, I I'm saying this very loosely with quotation mark, the product that, that baby coming out versus the process. And I already said, you, you work with us for the process and the product <laugh> of that process. And I think people are just so focused on the baby's not coming out. The baby's not coming out, but you needed somebody to make sure you were hydrated. You needed someone to make sure your blood pressure stayed. Okay. You, you know. You need somebody for all those other parts too, that we just focus on having the baby. So it's not that we were there too long, we're there the right amount of time to make sure that you and your baby are safe. Yeah.

Dori

Well, and as listeners can hear just from speaking to Martine, she is so calming and so supportive. And so just like, oh, I'm here for the right amount of time. And that was so important that night. And then the, you know, the whole process of working with you. Uh, but that was really helpful when I was kind of spinning out later that evening.

So I, I think it was around three in the morning at this point and contractions had kind of slowed when you guys first arrived from my perspective, I have no idea what actually happened. You encouraged me to get back in bed with Joe who was napping. So I did that for a little bit and I did, I felt really sad. I was like, oh, we were going and now it's slowed down. And I know that there was vomit at some point related to this, but I was in the bathroom. I think I had just vomited, taken a shower. And I remember I was like sitting in the bathroom, laboring on the toilet, which is so glamorous. Like everyone has that mental image now. Uh, but I remember feeling just so disheartened and Martine team coming in and talking to me and just saying like, this takes time, this is a process. Uh, there's no right or wrong. Um, I vaguely remember being like, you know what, I'm so tired. Like maybe I should just go to a hospital. Maybe I don't wanna do this home birth thing. And I'm like getting emotional, just thinking about it. Um, and Martine was so supportive. She was like, well of course, if that's what you wanna do, we can do that. That's, that's always an option for you. Um, but also like this is a process that takes time. Maybe you can rest a little bit more, see what happens, see how you feel in the next hour or so. And just like a little bit of encouragement to hang in there for, you know, another hour and your pep talk was really helpful. And I don't remember exactly what happened next. Uh, but it was around four o'clock that we started. I started pushing, uh, and I don't remember if you checked me first or if you, I have no idea. Do you remember anything about why I started pushing finally

Martine

You were very, you were bearing down a little bit and then after a while I just made it made sure that you had no cervix left, that you were completely dilated. Yeah.

Dori

So I don't remember that, but I can imagine that when you told me that I was very happy and was like, oh, it's happening. We can do this and got energy again. Um, and then we, I started pushing and that was a really, really long time of pushing. I pushed for prob for four hours. I also reviewed the notes cuz I printed them out for the baby book. Um, and I remember just like, oh my gosh, I remember you guys encouraged me after that, the first push you were like, oh, you're doing really good at this. You're very in touch with your body. You're pushing like I don't know the right way. So I felt all proud. And I was like, oh, that means it's gonna happen quickly. And then I just pushed every four, four minutes for four hours. Um, and I kind of was doing it in my sleep a little bit. I was pushing and then falling asleep in between contractions and then pushing and then falling asleep. And then there was like a, something happened in my body. I don't know what happened. Martine has described it to me since then as like a pop. Um, I just felt like I was woken up suddenly by some sharp sensation. Uh <laugh> Joe was in the other room. He was making himself Chinese food for breakfast. This is like four in the morning. And I remember Martine yelling out, Joe, you're gonna miss it. And so after four hours of pushing suddenly like we're back in action, I'm wide awake. Uh, Joe's rushing back into the bedroom. And I guess the, do you wanna speak Martine to what happened in that moment when you heard that pop?

Martine

She, it was a real pop of in her pelvis that she just heard this real detachment. And I also in the back of my head was thinking because when, uh, we started working together, I was like, oh, she's Tanya's friend, another body builder of chick. Oh boy, <laugh> <laugh>. I said super fit and everythingI said super firm from everything. So I was, it was just really a, a relaxation of letting go in your pelvis, which, you know, really did make a, uh, an alarming sound. I have to say that I was, you know, kind of worried about, um, you being able to, you know, move your legs and maneuver your pelvis afterwards.

Tanya

Yeah. I would've been worried that that was our pubic symphysis.

Martine

Yeah.

Tanya

And there was no ramification from this after the fact like Dori, you don't have any awareness of what exact place in your pelvis made the pop?

Dori

No, no idea.

Tanya

Fascinating.

Dori

No idea. Uh, and I was able to move fine afterwards. Yeah. I was like, my mother-in-law always comments on it. Cause she came over a few hours later and she was like, you were running around, sitting with your legs, crossed on the couch, like offering us coffee <laugh> I was totally fine after the birth. Um. but I have a video of the birth. I just watched it actually before this call to refresh my memory. I pushed a few more times. Uh, the baby started to crown Martine told me her mantra thou shall not tear, uh, and did not allow me to push when the babies had started to come out, which I was really unhappy about, but I took some deep breaths…

Martine

Just made it just right. Just wait. Let's just re just rephrase that we had you push gently. So the baby can birth gently and everything can stretch and move outta your kids' way. <laugh>

Dori

Yeah. Uh, so I was trying to relax, which is so difficult to do, and you feel so much pressure and so much pain, but I did, I relaxed and then the baby came out and then I was a mother and I was crying and Joe was crying. Um, and we didn't know the sex of the baby for quite some time for several minutes. Um, but she, she ended up being a girl, um, as so far, <laugh>, that's what we assume based on the, what she's assigned at birth. Um, and she was awesome. She was turning her head. She was, you know, crying out like a little baby dinosaur here and there. Um, but it was, it was just an amazing moment. It was an amazing moment. And if you guys were worried about anything, I, it didn't register with me. I just was so in awe and in love with that baby and just weeping <laugh>

Martine

It was, it was beautiful. Thank you for allowing me into your space and your family.

Dori

Yeah. I think the – just like the last thing that I, I like to share about this home birth experience, it was that that part was so peaceful. Like I was a mom, I became a, a parent in that moment and it was quiet in my, I was in my own home in my own apartment, you know, of course we then delivered the placenta and we had that quiet hour. I have no idea where you were Martine, but we were in the bedroom. I assume you were cleaning up. I don't know, watching TV, I don't know doing notes <laugh> um, but it was so peaceful. And then you brought me a smoothie or something eggs. I don't know. Oh, no, it was the Chinese food. You brought me the Chinese food for breakfast and made sure that I ate. And then you guys let yourself out. And Joe and I were just parents and it was so amazing to have this such like, Ugh, it was just such a peaceful experience. And it was terrifying because we went, we took a nap with the baby on Joe's chest, cuz he told us to sleep. That was gonna be a long stretch of sleep for the baby. So we were alone at home and then after several hours, uh, Avery just woke up crying and Joe and I looked at each other and we're like, oh there's no one else here. This is our life now <laugh> uh, which was overwhelming, but also so beautiful. Like it was such an amazing transition in our lives to becoming parents. And I, I don't think, I know we wouldn't have had that same experience at a hospital.

Martine

So something else, I don't know if you remember, this is, I always say Martine's famous question. So I always ask people right after the birth, you know, while we doing a newborn exam where before we leave and then I ask a postpartum visit and then at our six week visit, because your answers tend to change, but in your ideal pregnancy, labor and birth, what would you do the same? What would you have done differently? And um, and I always just love hearing people process, you know, like immediately after you and your partner talking about your experience of what would you do the same? What would you different in pregnancy, labor and birth and then how that shifts at six weeks versus, you know, once you've been on the job, on the job of mothering for a while <laugh> of what your thoughts were.

Dori

Yeah. Oh, it's interesting. Cuz it's almost four years later. So I'm like, oh I wouldn't change anything. <laugh> all of the things that I, that I probably was really stressed out about then have kind of fallen away. Um, I don't know. I, I can't think of anything that I would change. It was hard. It was a long time. I guess the only thing that I, I would've liked to have not compared myself so much to my sister, because I had that expectation of this is gonna be pretty fast. It's gonna be hard, but it's gonna be quick. And that, that really got me in my head. So as I passed that 12 hour mark or whatever it is, I was like, oh, I'm doing something wrong. This is bad. This is wrong. Uh, which of course is not true. But if I had not had that expectation different

Martine

Right in life, I think we, we always put out markers, we have to compare it to something, you know, to know that something's okay or not. Okay. So you have to kind of, with those comparisons, we've had someone that has, she said she wanted have like 10 babies I think was baby number nine or something. And through this whole pregnancy, this never happens. This never happens. This never happens. The whole birth, this never happens. This never happens. I was like, well you wanted 10. When you have all 10, you could tell me what usually happens and what doesn't, because she was like, because you can't compare and even you having two children, you can't compare the two births and pregnancies at all. It's the first lesson of don't compare your children cuz they're really different beings and different experiences to have them.

Dori

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Tanya

So Dori one, one final set of questions for you is really just to unpack a couple details of the postpartum. I know we need to wrap up and so I don't wanna belabor it too much. And we talk about postpartum all the time on this podcast. So, um, but I, any comments about breastfeeding? Like what was, what was that first latch like, how involved was Martine? How much help did you feel like you needed? And then also if you could just touch on anything that happened with your mood in the postpartum period.

Dori

Yeah. I was really fortunate with breastfeeding. Um, Martine did help me to get Avery latched for that first time and she latched pretty well. Um, and I didn't really have any issues. Um, you know, early on in breastfeeding, you just don't know if you're doing it right. You don't know, you don't know if the baby is latching on, but so that first day she was really involved and then she came for that immediate postpartum visit. The, I guess it was the same day, maybe the next day, um, and checked in on it and made sure that, that she was eating and then followed up by phone a lot just to ask how are things going? And I didn't have any issues. She had, she recommended a lactation consultant if I needed it. Um, but I really didn't have any issues with the latch. I'm sure I reached out to you Tanya. I can't quite remember cuz it was, it hurts <laugh> um, it wasn't, I never, never toe curling pain. I can't remember who used that expression to make sure that, um, it was you <laugh>, um, it was never toe curling pain, but it hurts. And your nipples are very sensitive during that time, but it was pretty, I was very lucky we didn't have issues. Um, and then my mood, oh I can't, again, I think I was pretty lucky in terms of how I made that transition and how my hormones responded to becoming a parent. I, I had more serious anxiety after my second daughter was born. I don't, no one, I didn't see a therapist to ed with like a PPA, but, but I, I felt pretty good after Avery with that first, um, with my first birth and postpartum experience and I just felt so supportive.

Martine

Did you feel you had that's was to say, did you feel you had great postpartum support the first and second time?

Dori

Yeah, the first time I felt extremely supported, um, you know, I had Martine, I had Tanya, I took time off work. Um, and I had three other very close friends that I met during pregnancy. And so we were together a lot during that postpartum period. And that was life changing to have people who are in the exact same stage of motherhood. We were going through it at the exact same time. Uh, I didn't have a lot of close friends from before being a parent who were parents at that time or pregnant at that time. So I was very intentional about making friends during pregnancy, um, which was a great, <laugh> very great thing to do, a decision I'm happy with. I'm still very good friends with them today. Um, the second time was harder. It was COVID, you know, I had Layla August, 2020. Uh, I was very grateful that I was already signed up for a home birth. I will say that cuz a lot of my friends kind of wanted last minute home births, which is problematic for a number of reasons. Um, but so yeah, I, I had much more support the first time around and I think that that was kind of vital to coping with any of the mood stuff and the identity shift that happens at that time.

Tanya

Martine, is there anything else that you wanna add with all this hindsight?

Martine

Not, I can't think of anything right off the bat, but it was my pleasure as you know, doing this work just you get to meet such wonderful people that you would never really meet every day and meet real New Yorkers doing, you know, home births in the five boroughs. So I feel blessed to be part of Dori's story and, and Joe's

Tanya

Wait, I know where we have been remiss. You started out telling us that the cat is an integral part of your story. <laugh>

Martine

Don't get me started with that cat.

Tanya

Well, the funny thing is apparently Martine and I equally hate cats. <laugh> so Dori, what's the story with the

Martine

Cat, the home birth thing. So I'm, I'm the dog person. Karen's a cat person. So whenever we go to people's homes, the cats always come to me and the dogs always go to Karen <laugh> let's.

Dori

So I have a cat who is very friendly. I always joke that she will go to the newest person in the room. She just wants love from everyone. So she will sit on the newest person's lap until they love her. Um, so, and we also were she's persistent. She was very persistent. We also lived in a very small two bedroom apartment at the time. So I'm laboring in one room. There's not the cat didn't wanna be near me cuz I was probably freaking her out. Uh, so she only had limited options. And so she was on Martine essentially the entire time I was laboring, uh, which I had very little awareness of in the moment, but I saw a Facebook post about it. <laugh> later on how upset Martine was that my cat was glued to her lap.

Martine

<laugh> Shawna, Shawna posts that I was just like, I was like, you can appreciate this after we were just laughing. Everyone's like, oh, I didn't know how you felt like, yeah. I was like, is this a deal breaker that I don't really like cats like tolerate them. <laugh> I've woken up with cats all around me. You know if you're take a nod off on a couch. Yeah. <laugh>

Tanya

That is so funny. Oh my goodness. I love it. All right guys. I'm glad weed on the cat note. Thank you so much for taking the time today to share your story and Dori. I hope that, um, this audio record of you telling your birth story, is it four years later? Is that how, where we're at this

Dori

October? It will be four years.

Tanya

Almost four years. Yeah. So I hope that this, um, serves a great purpose and you and Avery and your whole family's life moving forward.

Dori

Yes. Thank you. I'm so grateful to have this experience and to reprocess the memory with Martine so many years later, it's really special. So thank you for setting it up. 

Martine

Midwife for life. When you send them off to school, you're having a good cry. You're sending them to college. Just give a holler we're always here for you

Dori

I definitely will