Tanya:

All right. So I wanna have you introduce yourself, but I wanna tell everybody why you came on the show first. So basically, you know, I, I think everybody's gotten the gist. I kind of try really hard to alternate episodes between interviewing professionals and interviewing former clients to talk about their experience because, well, it's, it's really cool to talk to people about their experience when I was part of it also, I mean, in the future, I'll probably start talking to strangers about their experience too. But when I put out feelers to clients to say like, who wants to be on the show? You know, there are some people who are really enthusiastic to do so. And Jessica was, you know, excited to come on the show. And she said two things that she wanted to talk about. That first of all, one of them, I would never have thought of myself.

So it kind of reminds me why it's important to kind of hand the mic to other people so that it's not just like me, the professional saying, this is what you need to know about. And this is what I think you need to hear. One of those things is this idea of extending kindness and grace to yourself. And I'm really interested in hearing her talk about this, because this is probably more of what was going on in her inner thoughts. I'm not so aware. It's not like we had, you know, 12 weeks of conversations about this at all. So between the fact that these were inner thoughts, and I'm sure there's a lot of hindsight going into this idea, I'm just so excited to have this conversation. And the second thing she wanted to talk about is the way we work together with her postpartum return to fitness, which I haven't talked much about on the show.

Like I hinted at it. I mentioned that I do it, but I don't think anyone, anyone understands how much variability there is in the way that I do this with different people. And I also think that if anyone's following me on Instagram, they think if you're not a, CrossFitter probably, it's not a good idea to work with me, which isn't true at all. Yes. Thank you. So these are the two things we're gonna highlight and talk about in this episode. So before we get started, Jessica, do me a favor, introduce yourself, share whatever details you feel, comfortable sharing publicly.

Jessica:

Sure. So I'm Jessica San. I live in Atlanta, Georgia with my husband, Tyler, and as we've shared, I have a, almost two year old can't do the math, but almost two year old <laugh> Josie and a very large Bernese mountain dog, 120 pound Bernese mountain dog, the mighty Quinn happy family living our living our best life.

Tanya:

And if I recall, I could make some mistakes here because again, it's a lot of people and time is passing. You are somebody who intended to have one child. Is that correct?

Jessica:

Yeah. That's where we are right now. Still. Yeah. That's fair.

Tanya:

You came to it with a sense of certainty. Yeah.

Jessica:

Is that I think, yeah. I mean, you never know where life is gonna take you, but yeah, I think, yes. We're probably living. We definitely came to it with the thought that we would have one child and I think we're still in that space.

Tanya:

Cool. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Alright. So first I think we should set the stage and just, you know, kind of give the appropriate background information. I reviewed your notes and some of it, I actually remembered pretty clearly, which was nice. If I recall you had a fairly straightforward pregnancy and a pretty nice birth too.

Jessica:

Right? Yes. I remember my OB saying your body was built to bear a child <laugh> and I was like, what?

Tanya:

Yeah. Right.

Jessica:

That way. But yes, that's what she said. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I always say it was an uneventful pregnancy, like all the way through, it felt uneventful.

Tanya:

Right. It's funny that you say that uneventful, because there's another word that comes up on a lot of things, especially sonograms it's unremarkable. Yeah. And I, whenever I'm reading a, a report to someone I say, this is the only time in life, you wanna be told that you are unremarkable. Absolutely. <laugh>

Jessica:

Yes, no surprises, no surprises.

Tanya:

Yeah. And I think it's really important that we start that way because a lot of the stories we tell on the show where people who had interesting complications and things that made things difficult, and I'm really in this season, I'm gonna talk to a couple people who had more or less normal experiences, because I wanna make sure that we create some balance and that I'm not out here fear mongering, that everybody has a horrible time. And we can't talk about postpartum in a vacuum. We have to talk about like, what happened through the pregnancy, what happened through the birth? Because it's all connected. So I just wanted to start with a base that there's nothing like earth shattering that we needed to say about your pregnancy or your birth. So with that said, tell us a little bit about what with all this hindsight you now have, what postpartum was like for you.

Jessica:

Yeah. So, you know, I think it's probably important to mention that I found out that I was pregnant two weeks before COVID hit. And so having a baby really right in the midst of a surge, not sure if our, if my husband would be able to join me in the hospital until the bitter end parents having to quarantine before they could even see the baby. All of that was a part of my story too. And so I would say there was a level of isolation that I think every new parent probably experiences on some level, because you are just trying to get your feet under you with a, a newborn in your home. But I think it was probably exacerbated by the fact that we were in this COVID bubble and really had to take even more precautions than we ever would've considered had we not been living through a pandemic? 

So it was, I would say, looking back now, you were, you know, in the moment you're just trying to get through it. You're excited, you're tired. You know, you're just experiencing a roller coaster of emotions, hormones. I remember talking with Tanya about talking with you about just not knowing that you're in like a hormone surge until you're on the other side of it. You're like you can look back and say, oh, that was not, that was not me. <Laugh> that was something chemical going on in my body. But you know, you're just experiencing a lot. And so it, I would say it probably took I don't know about a year for me to feel like I had had steady footing in every way that I would've liked to have felt that I do remember around three months, things started to feel much, much more manageable.

But I also have this quote in my head that you said to me, Tanya, that I've said I've shared with so many other people and that is that there are no U-turns when you have a baby, you can't go back. And I loved that because I think there was a part of me that was trying to go back. Like I wanted to like get back to, you know, my pre-pregnancy weight and feel as fit as I was before and feel as like emotionally sound, you know, all the things. And you just realize that you're on this journey and you, you don't turn around and go back, you go forward. But that's where all the excitement and fun is too. You become totally, yeah. A newer, stronger version of yourself.

Tanya:

I don't remember that saying that, like, that's not a phrase that I actually can hear myself saying over and over again. The idea. Definitely.

Jessica:

You said it! I've quoted you many times.

Tanya:

It's nice to hear those things thrown back to me and know that I actually say things spontaneously and that I'm not just like a robot who repeats the same stuff to people. Right? yeah, I think that that's really important. And we talk about this a lot in different ways with different people, depending on the situation, because for some people let's say for people who didn't have a straightforward birth, they are doing this kind of like, what if I had done this? What if I had made this choice kind of thing. And, and in those cases I say things like, you can never have the same baby twice, once where you get the epidural and once where you don't or once where you, whatever, whatever pick any variable you want, you never get that chance with a birth, which is why research around birth is so complex and difficult.

Right? But yeah, so that was your, your journey and you are, you know, a very, like you're a type A, functioning person. All my clients are like that is, people are finding me out of the woodwork who are just so much like me in terms of being type A and I'm like, I don't understand how it's happening this way, but it is. It's like it's out in the ether. And you know, people who are like us, we just want to function so badly. And it's so hard to feel like you're functioning on lack of sleep with a new baby, all the new things. It just messes up your routine and rhythm and we're seeking a routine and rhythm. And I think that's part of what drives that desire to make the U-turn.

Jessica:

That's right. To go back to what felt familiar and safe and comfortable. You know, my mom said something to me too. And I think you, and I probably talked about this at some point, she said, when you have a baby, the baby's not just born your reborn too. And I also appreciated that sentiment because it's this acknowledgement that you are growing into a different person when you become a parent. And it's so true how I show up at work every day, my perspective, what I value in my life, how I spend my time, all of those things have changed. I mean, you know, I say all those things have changed. I'm still who I am at my core, that type A person you just described. But, you know, the things that really matter in your life, they shift for in, in my opinion, and for the better because you're prioritizing this little person that has come into your world and all the things that come along with it.

Tanya:

Yeah. Well said, well said. And that's why every single client that has a first birthday that I witness on Instagram as the birthday messages are popping in, I say, happy birthday to you, mama. Right. Because I, I know the feeling, I just got goosebumps when I said it. I know the feeling from my own personal experience. I know the feeling from working with people in this way for so many years, my birth, the birth of my baby was my birth too. And I know it very acutely and it is funny sometimes I think we should be celebrating our child's birthday ourself and like going through the generations that way, because it's so profound. It's such a profound life change. So, okay, are there ways in which I don't know how much you thought about postpartum before postpartum, because let's face it COVID I was able to start this business because COVID made people more aware of how, how hard postpartum is, or was going to be in these new circumstances and, and now I think the awareness has stuck, which is great, but were there ways in which you thought you knew what life would be like with a baby compared to what it actually is? Is there a difference that you can see or had you just not put enough thought into it and you just were in a COVID tunnel?

Jessica:

You know, that's a great question. I think it was better than I anticipated. I had Josie when I was 36 and, you know, in the grand scheme of things, 36 is not old, but when you start talking in medical terms, you hear the word geriatric thrown around a lot and you're like, wait a minute. What's, you know, going on. But I think part of the reason why I waited a little bit longer than some of my peers was that I did have I don't know, some level of anxiety of my life sort of being taken away from me that what I, a joy about my life wouldn't exist anymore, which is certainly not the case. But so when she was born, obviously, like I said, that that first year was tough.

I think for a number of reasons that went well beyond just having a, a newborn, but I think it ended up just being better. She, she has filled our world in ways that we couldn't anticipated with a lot of joy and happiness. And, you know, we joked, I remember talking to Tanya about this talking to you when we, she started sleeping through the night at around two months, and we didn't tell any of our friends because <laugh> for obvious reasons, <laugh>, you know, like you didn't wanna rub it in anybody's face, but we've had a really easy going kid the, the whole way through and that probably a big factor. But I would say it ended up being the fear that I had about the unknown dissipated very quickly. And what filled that instead was a really wonderful adventure with Josie.

Tanya:

Yeah. One of the memories I have is shortly after you ended the program, we were probably still doing fitness stuff at this time. Yeah. But you, you guys went on like, I don't know, Facebook or Instagram live and your husband plays like the acoustic guitar so nicely. And he was playing the guitar for Josie and she was so loving it. And it was one of the most beautiful things I had ever seen. And I joined this Facebook live and I was just mesmerized by the combination of what he was doing and what her response was. I'll never forget it.

Jessica:

That's so lovely that yes. I remember you being there too. You know, it was one of those things where again, we were so isolated, we wanted to share Josie with our friends and family. It was the easy way to do it. And Tyler, he's in a band, he plays the bass and the acoustic guitar and every other instrument that you put in his hand. But yeah, he does it with Josie all the time. She loves it. And it's yeah, exactly. That's and that's an example of the fun that you just couldn't see coming before she showed up.

Tanya:

Yeah. And it's funny because I recently worked with someone who maybe she'll be on my show one day too. Actually somebody I just wrapped up with and she's a professional violinist and she had a fairly rough postpartum. But I really encouraged her to like lay the baby down on the floor and pick up her violin. And it took a little while for her to do it, but she did it and it was, it was great. And I think that that's a beautiful thing for, you know, if you're a musician or whatever you are, you have to do your thing in front of your kids. Yeah, totally. You just have to, whether it's exercise or whatever it is, you gotta do it with them in front of them. Anyway…

Jessica:

Share your world with them. Share what brings you joy with them.

Tanya:

All right. Well, that's a perfect segue. I want you to tell me what you were thinking and what you meant when you said, I wanna talk about extending kindness and grace to ourselves. We're so good at doing that for other people and we don't do it for ourselves. So what did that look like for you?

Jessica:

Yeah, I mean, I, I think I sort of hinted at this, you know, I was very physically active during my pregnancy. It was a way to sort of keep for me, exercise is the, in the most important ways about my mental wellbeing. I always say like, you wash your brain in endorphins. My mom has shared that with she's a long distance runner. You wash your brain in endorphins when you exercise. And it's like a happy, you know, jolt. And so I was very, um, I prioritized, you know, exercising still all the way through my pregnancy. And after the fact after Josie was born, it was harder for me to do that for all the reasons we just described and, and more I wasn't prepared for the physical, even though Tanya, even though we talked about it over and over again, I wanted to believe that I was just gonna be able to go and do all the things that I had done before. And I didn't, and I couldn't, and I, in that moment was really hard on myself. And I was extremely grateful that I had you, you were such a critical sounding board. I've told so many other people what a great investment it was to, to really partner with you through that season of my life. Because you did, you were sort of a mirror, you were holding up a mirror to me and saying, Hey, you know, this is who you are and everything's okay. And here's what you can do. And here's when you'll be able to, you know, start thinking about doing the things that you normally would've done, but I was extremely impatient. And I think a lot of people are, you just want to feel again, some sense of normalcy. And I was harder on myself than I probably deserve to be. And you're absolutely right. We're so much harder on ourselves than we are on anyone else. And if we were talking to a friend, we would give them all of the best advice. And when we, when we look in the mirror, we are far less inclined to do that. And so just finding ways to be kind and patient and understanding with you through that season I think is just so, so important.

Tanya:

So, you know, what's interesting. I have no awareness or maybe I've just forgotten. Maybe I knew back then. You tell me if you think I knew, I don't remember being aware that you were being hard on yourself. I remember you being eager. But I don't remember that there was a negative self talk thing going on. I guess what I got to see was you saying, I wanna work on this. I wanna work on this, help me get where I need to go. And so I just saw you as goal oriented. I didn't know. I don't think I did.

Jessica:

I think that's probably fair. I don't know that I even knew. You know, again, looking back on that moment, you're right. Like you said, I'm type A, I am extremely goal oriented when I get something in my mind to do it, I'm going to do it. And so that's probably how it was showing up. But I think if I'm being honest with myself, reflecting I think I was being really hard on myself and probably a little impatient. And again, had I been talking to a friend and I was the, you know, friend, I would've said, hold your horses. Everything's okay. You're gonna get there. And, so for whatever it is for whoever is listening, it may not be physical activity. It may be something else in your life, whatever that is to just find a way to extend yourself some grace and say, you know, if this matters to you, when it can happen, it will happen. You'll make sure that it does, but that it doesn't, you don't have to wake up the day after you have a baby and say, okay, let's get to it.

Tanya:

Well, I think also for you, the awareness of this kindness and grace came through fitness, but even from your introduction, I can see that it has manifested in other ways you started by saying, I show up to work differently. And if you're showing up to work differently, it's because you're saying my life, isn't what it was. I can't be on time every day or whatever it is, because shit happens, like actual literal shit happens. Right. So, and sometimes you don't get out the door because of the timing of when it happens.

Jessica:

Absolutely, it is so, so true. Like, I was somebody who was here at, you know, seven 15 in the morning, every day I hung around after the day had ended. And I don't do that anymore. I am out the door because I gotta get home and see my kid, and I want to do that. And you're right. There's just so much that happens at home that sort of bleeds into your work life. If you are a working parent, you understand that. And those just priorities, they shift and again, being okay with that, like finding, being comfortable with that transition is something that's probably really important to do a a, and just being honest with yourself about where you are, you know, that it may be hard for some people to let go of those pieces, you know, for that to shift. But whatever it is, whatever it looks like, just finding a way to, to be at peace with that.

Tanya:

So to operationalize what you mean kindness and grace, cuz these are things that are hard for me too, as like a go getter. I don't stop and think about these things as often as I should. Would you say that this equates to cutting yourself some slack or is there another better, clearer way to say what it means to give this to yourself?

Jessica:

Yeah. I mean, I think it could be that again, I think it depends on the context of what it is somebody might be sort of wrestling with. I think in my context, when I'm thinking about just wanting to get back to the same sort of standard of physical health and get back into a work routine, it was definitely cutting myself. Some slack that, that language is totally appropriate for my context. But for somebody else, it might look different. Yeah, the, the word grace for me is an important one. I try to give it as much as I can to other people. And I think after becoming a parent, I have tried to give it to myself as much as I can too.

Tanya:

Yeah. I think what, it comes down to another like big buzzword that can make you wanna roll your eyes sometimes. Cuz it's we say it so often, but it, it comes down to self care. Absolutely. You aren't giving yourself kindness or grace, if you never carve out the moments for self care. Yeah. And moments for self care can be literal seconds sometimes and they can be hours or days depending on what the task at hand is. I'm not suggesting that in the early days postpartum, it is ever feasible to give yourself more than hours. Right? And when I say hours, we're usually talking about sleep at that point. <Laugh> right. Absolutely.

When we're talking about minutes, we're usually talking about a shower, a walk or some time to pay attention to your pelvic floor. Or whatever it is that you're filling that time with. Yes. And when we're talking about seconds, we're literally talking about taking three slow deep breaths.

Jessica:

Yeah. I mean, for me self care. And I remember using that language when Tyler and I were talking about you, you were a part of my self care plan through pregnancy and postpartum. That was an intentional choice that we made an investment we made to ensure that I had a sounding board. And actually we, he talked with you too, that we had a sounding board for whatever it was that was going to come up that we couldn't even anticipate…just building that into our routine was huge for us. Huge.

Tanya:

Yeah. And, and people do use me and this service in really different ways. And sometimes it's really communal husband, wife, partners kind of in together on all of it. And sometimes it's…you, you're in this category, but there's one person who actually has been on the show, Jae Bratton. She said very clearly in our first session, no, my husband will not be participating. I bought this for me. Right? Like, and I was like right on. Yeah. I loved that.

Jessica:

Absolutely. Well, and again, like especially, I think we were even more aware of it than we normally would've been because like you said this earlier because of COVID and just the isolation we were experiencing in so many other ways. He, and he couldn't, he couldn't come with me to the doctor. And so if he had a question about something he would pop up and ask you, and then he would disappear again, you know, but it was just nice that he had someone he could turn to also.

Tanya:

Yeah. Yeah. I love being there for the partners too, because one of the things that's coolest with the partners is they very often come to our first couple sessions when you're still pregnant. And very often they are very quiet and I can see their eyes bouncing from you to me, to you, to me. And they're hearing a dialogue that's different than anything they've ever heard between two people before. Right. Because it's a, it's a different relationship, right. I'm not your sister, your mother, your girlfriend, but we develop a closeness. Right. And I think, I feel that with just about all my former clients. Which is so lovely. I'm I feel still so invested in all of you. And it's just wonderful. But I think he got to hear as did many partners. Oh, there's something happening here that I can't quite understand that I have, I it's a language I've not used before. And then they realize, I just need to, I need to let them have this yeah. And do this thing, but they also know that they can text me and they can ask questions and all of that too, which is of course I think priceless.

Anything else you wanted to add about kindness of grace that ended up being fairly concise, but I like that, like, because I, it was too elusive for me when you said it and now it's tangible. It's a very realistic, tangible thing. And I love it.

Jessica:

Yeah. I mean, I think it's pretty simple. Like, okay. I mean, I think the message is simple. How you do it may not be simple because again, right. We're, we're harder on ourselves, but the intention behind the message is to just find ways to be kind to yourself and patient and understanding and whatever you would do for a sister or a girlfriend or a mother or a friend that you would do the same thing for yourself.

Tanya:

Yeah. Well, other things we haven't said, right. It's and we're hinting at it without saying it explicitly, but we'll say it explicitly lining up help and support. And that doesn't have to be paid support. It's a great option because sometimes you need the objectivity of somebody who isn't going to feel badly when you don't wanna do it their way, which can happen with mothers, sisters, and girlfriends.

Jessica:

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Tanya:

So when it's an option, that's great, but it's lining up support. So whether it's the meal train, it's the people to be with the baby so that you can sleep a longer stretch it's whatever it is that you need, identify the problem and find a solution. And I find that when you're in the thick of it, if you don't have a, even a small team, you just can't get outta your own way.

Jessica:

Yes. You cannot get out of your own way!

Tanya:

Yeah. And that's where I come in and say, that's, it's like a hint of tough love. Hey <laugh>. This is what I'm seeing. Right. And I'm amazed at how receptive people are to that edge of tough love that I give them. And I learned that actually in my own birth from the midwife who I still know who caught my baby because in labor I needed tough love it wasn't the typical midwife thing. I had a fairly longish labor and I hung out at like one centimeter for a stupidly long time acting like somebody who was an active labor. And I was, I was an active labor. I just was stuck at one. And then I broke my water and I was fully dilated. Right. I did this kind of weird labor thing. Anyway, when I, when that happened, I freaked out. I started vomiting my brains out, which vomiting is something I do not do well, anyone else can vomit and I'll help them.

But I think I'm dying when I vomit. So I'm vomiting my brains out and I finally lose it. And I'm at a freestanding birthing center. And I say, I can't do this anymore. I want to the hospital and I'm like, and she looks at me this like snarl. And she says, well, get up and put your clothes on and let's go. And I looked at her and I looked back at that bathtub and I said, what a bitch. I'll show her. And I got back in the tub. And by golly, I had that baby in the birthing center.

Jessica:

That baby came out!

Tanya:

I learned such an important lesson about being a midwife. That it wasn't all about like, oh, they're there. Let me rub your back and pat your hair and right. Put cold water on your face. Sometimes someone needs like that edge. And I don't do it to people all the time, but she taught me in an instant that sometimes you have to show people where they are.

Jessica:

She knew her audience.

Tanya:

<Laugh> Sure did sure did. And I hope that I know my most of the time, but anyway,

Jessica:

I'm glad that you didn't tell me that story before I had a baby. <Laugh>

Tanya:

<Laugh> I don't tell it very often, but now it's out there place. Yeah, exactly. Now, now I've done it. Yeah. Yeah. That's my birth story in a nutshell. So, alright. Let's talk a little bit about the way we approached your return to fitness. Because again, I think people wonder, like, what was she like teaching zoom classes or something like what is happening? And I don't do that. That's not what I do. Yeah. So I wanna back off and let you tell people what I did and then I can kind of chime in about how that might vary in different situations.

Jessica:

Yeah. So I think for me, I had, so I am not a CrossFitter I have zero interest in CrossFit and, but I am an orange theory-er and I, so I had a language, an understanding of like exercises. So, you know, for you, like if you said you're gonna do 10 bird dogs, I knew what a bird dog was, that sort of thing. So the shorthand was already there. But what I wanted was to know how to safely, you know, ease my way back into physical movement and exercise in a safe and responsible way. I had experienced some, I was a runner for a long time and I had some injuries that I didn't want to sort of reawaken. And so I was very, I was very conscious of just wanting to do it responsibly. And so, you know, you and I sat down and we talked through what my goals were and how I might start introducing exercise back into my life.

And it, it, again, I think, you know, you were a great starting point for me. We talked, I think probably, I don't know, six to eight weeks, something like that, just checking in and making sure that I felt good about things. And did I have any questions? And, oh, here's something that came up that I wasn't anticipating is this normal? Should I be worried about this? And it just, it was, you were able to put my mind at ease as I started working back towards that routine in my life. And I will say this too. I just started going back to orange theory about a month and a half ago. It's taken that long for a number of reasons that had nothing to do with like my physical state, but really just COVID and wanting to make sure that we felt safe and comfortable with a gym.

But when I walked out of orange theory for the first time after I'd exercised, I started crying. And it wasn't because I was uncomfortable. It was because I was so happy that I had reincorporated that part of my routine into my life postpartum. And that was like we said, almost two years later. So again, in terms of extending grace, that was a moment of me extending grace to myself to say, Hey, you did it. And it took longer than you thought it was going to take, but you're here and yay for that.

Tanya:

Yes. So I think the thing that you said that I realized when you suggested talking about this that's so cool is the work we did was almost all talking. And that's what people don't understand about how this midwife does return to fitness with people. What were there moments where we maybe like actively reviewed a movement or what you were feeling when you did something? Sure. Like every time we had a session, I made sure I was wearing good clothing to move. If I had to demo something and you were generally status post a workout and on your yoga mat, sweaty on the floor anyway, like you worked it out that way with me, if I'm not mistaken. And, but we would talk and if there was something physical, you might lay down on the mat and show me like, well, when I did this, I felt this. whatever. And so we, we can troubleshoot. So that's the piece I realized I wanted people to hear. I'm not giving you a zoom class, nor am I…n some cases I will write programming for people. But most of the work I do with most people is helping them decide how to progress. How, what movements I think, based on what they're saying, they're ready to explore. And how to know when they test it for the first time, if that is in fact, right. How to keep moving in the right direction. If they feel something funny, we really play detective together to figure out what's causing it. So we're modifying breath strategies, the use of our pelvic floor. Maybe we're engaging too much or gripping here or there. And it's like, it's a fun physical detective work. That's why I love it so much. So for me, when somebody takes our postpartum journey into that space, more explicitly, it's just so fun for me because it's just, it's like a hobby. It's a hobby that I get to do professionally. And so, yeah, so that's really the take home message that I want people to hear what I do with people. Isn't about what modality you prefer. It doesn't matter whether it's yoga, pilates, orange theory, CrossFit, I don't know. Maybe you do karate or jujitsu where it doesn't matter. The principles are the same. Recovering from birth and moving through body weight stuff. I think one of the more interesting things is working with people that are runners because runners wanna get back to running. And that's an area where I actually have stronger feelings about the value of strength training. So we can't just like, get out the door and go run. And I can tell everybody this and they still do it. They still go for a run. And then when it feels weird, they come back to me. Okay, I don't really understand what just happened. And I'm like, okay, let's back up and talk about this again. So, you know, there are ideas that I have in my head about how this works. A lot of them come from trainings I've had with really smart people. And most of it now at this point comes from watching this in action with people. And the other point you bring up that I think is super critical for people to hear is the recovery, even when completely normal is often slower than we want it to be. And some of that is because it just simply takes time for the body to, it never goes back to what it was, but find its new normal.

Jessica:

No, U-turns

Tanya:

No U-Turns. Wow, that's the quote for this episode. Yeah. No, U-turns I love it. It's that, but it's also that when we are investing in our new baby, we can't invest in ourselves to the extent that we want and it's kinda like, duh, but we can't see that. Like we just can't see that until we're on the other side.

Jessica:

You can't, you can see it. You can't appreciate again how significant the change is going to be in your life. And yeah. And so you're absolutely right. Part of it has nothing to do with your physical state of being. It's just the amount of time that exists in a day and where you, where you prioritize. And again, that these seasons, especially with a newborn are so short lived, you know, they're so fleeting, as soon as you think you have one thing figured out, they go and change again and they become a whole different set of challenges and experiences. And so just getting that, getting yourself settled into a rhythm is almost an impossible ask to some degree. But as time goes on, you do find ways to build back in routine for yourself, self care that, you know, you wouldn't have been able to experience when you have a six month old in your house. It's just, you know, it's a whole different state that you're living through.

Tanya:

Yeah. Well said, well said.

Jessica:

But I do think

Tanya:

I, anything else you're wanting to share with people?

Jessica:

Well, I would just say that I think the, having the resource through pregnancy of you as a sounding board was huge having you as sort of this, like, I mean, you were a, <laugh> like a fitness coach for me too. You, you assumed two very different roles and in some ways there were obvious overlaps. It was informed by the fact that you have this background to make sure that what I was doing was safe. But I think I used you in that second stage with the physical activity in a very different way than I used you in the first stage. And it was great to have you as a resource for both. They both obviously had to do with physical activity. One was birthing a child. The other one was exercise, but our conversations looked dramatically different when we sort of transitioned into that return to exercise.

Tanya:

Totally. But it was always nice to start the conversation with like a real genuine, how are you? Because the truth is, if you were to say, Hey, I, I need to backtrack on a postpartum concept. Like we would've just used that time to do it. I always say, this is your time, right? Whatever it is that you need. And again, how this developed for me in the virtual world was that I was doing this, but I was also running a business, a physical business, doing this with people in gyms. But what would happen was the person would come in and burst into tears or tell me their nipples hurt. And before you knew it, our training session got used to doing something else. And so I just was like, you know what, everyone's time is their time. You just paid me for your time and we're gonna use it in whatever way is the priority today. Right? And the fitness piece will come.

Jessica:

It will come.

Tanya:

Now I do wanna point out one thing you've used

Jessica:

Go ahead. No, go ahead. Go ahead.

Tanya:

You sure? Yeah. I don't want you to forget your thought.

Jessica:

No, go.

Tanya:

All right. Fair. So what I was gonna say was you've used the word safety a few times and while at your, to, it's totally fine to think that way. I do wanna say one thing about that. I think there's a lot of fear mongering about how we return to fitness. And there are a lot of things people say that sound very absolutist. And my job is to take away all that feeling like there's very little someone's going to do that is overtly unsafe. It's really just about what's my best choice and what what's the state of the science and how can we combine the state of the science, which isn't fantastic, to be honest. I mean, we've got a lot of data. We've got more data than we ever had before, but that data is based on statistics and you are an individual, right?

And so we have to say, this is what we know. This is what we don't know. Let's put it aside. How do you feel when you do X, Y, and Z and how can we make it feel better? That's the end of the day. But none of this stuff where it's like, you cannot do this. You must not do that. You have to do it this way. The science on those things has not really panned out. So when we talk core safe and not core safe exercises, that's bad science. That's actually not true. Some of the movements that we have called core safe are just as intensive on your pelvic floor as the supposed non safe version. Right. We have to remember that like coughing and sneezing and yelling at our kids actually is more force on the pelvic floor. The most other exercises we might do in the control environment. Anyway, I just wanted to get that thought out because it's always important to me to like frame anything that could be seen as concerning to people.

Jessica:

Well, that was always a part of our conversation. You were regularly reminding me of that. And that was again, just as important for me to hear that. I'm probably not gonna break anything here, but here are some things that I can be mindful of. Right. Like that's. And, and that, that was giving me that peace of mind because you're right. The sensory that, you know, the noise that we get from the outside tells you a message that is, is scary. And so you were the voice of reason and calm saying, no, no, here's what you need to know. Here's what we know. Here's what we don't. And let's, here's a plan that we can work towards. And that was, that was the value in it. That was what was so important for me to hear

Tanya:

That makes me so happy that that's the memo you got from me.

Jessica:

Sure. I got a lot of memos from you. I got a lot of memos from you, but that was, that was one of them.

Tanya:

Super that's so super. What were you gonna say when we both tried to,

Jessica:

I don't, I dunno.

Tanya:

I knew that was gonna happen. It doesn't matter.

Jessica:

It wasn't that important as gone now.

Tanya:

Oh, Jessica, it has been so, so lovely catching up with you. It, it feels like catching up with an old friend and I'm so happy to see your smiling face and oh, hear your story and be reminded of this wonderful success story of someone who had a pretty easy road, but here she is still telling you that, you know, this was fairly all consuming for a year of her life. Right? That's why these conversations are so important.

Jessica:

Yep. And that, you know, I would say this too, and this kind of goes back to the grace conversations and I've, I've had, as we have sort of reentered the world more and we're physically around each other more than we were even, you know, a year ago, whatever it was. I've been having more conversations with friends and colleagues who have also gone through the pregnancy journey in the last couple of years. And we are all caring around versions of the same things, you know, these similar stories. And I think a lot of us, if you did have a child, especially in the last two years, you may not have had a place to put all of that. You know, that emotion, that experience. And so not being afraid to share, to talk about it with other people, or if, particularly, if you feel like you need professional help to do that, to not shy away from that to not minimize your own needs again, it's a version of extending grace to yourself. I think it's so important because you'll find you're not alone. No matter, like you just said, Tanya, no matter how on the surface, how easy something looked for someone else, there's probably another story that played out underneath the surface.

Tanya:

Yeah. Like you beating yourself up in ways I had no idea was happening right here. We are two years later talking about it. I am like, oh, that's the one part of this conversation that breaks my heart just a little bit. I'm like, oh no, I didn't know that was happening,

Jessica:

But I don't know that I even knew it was happening until that's. I could look back. I don't, I don't know that I was even conscious of it, but now I've got that perspective to say, oh yeah, I could have been a little easier on myself.

Tanya:

Yeah. And again the memo here is get help line up help because no one was expected to be able to do this on their own. Times are so different. And I know that's a cliché we talk about a lot. But back in the day, when people had routinely babies at home with extended families, you just had people around kind of reminding you what was normal and what…And even in the best of times now COVID aside, we just don't live in a world like that. We are so often the only person we know that is pregnant, having a baby trying to breastfeed and we're just trying to figure it out all by ourself in a vacuum.

Jessica:

Right. Absolutely. Ask for help.

Tanya:

Impossible. Yep. It's impossible.

Jessica:

Yep. Use Tanya. Totally. Can you ask for help use Tanya?

Tanya:

Thank you. I do hope that people will start to see more and more of the value of this. I know it's confusing, the work that I'm doing, like how can this be so effective virtually?

Jessica:

It's so effective. It was even, I think, I think it was more effective virtually because you were like, basically on call.

Tanya:

Yes. Well, that's one of the things I say to people all the time is there has been such a shift for me in the forced virtual nature of it, where I use my words more and more careful with my words. And I find that you can empower people to do things themselves. So the classic example I give is like helping somebody breastfeed in the hospital. Like even I just, you know, I think people know, I just got off of a stint of taking call for the first time in a good long while at the hospital. And I found myself doing it again, like I'm busy, I've got three other people in labor and I'm trying to help this woman on postpartum. And she's a little slow about getting her baby on the breast. And I jump in with my hands and do it. And I was like, Tanya, what are you doing?

Right. But I'm like, I gotta catch the baby over there. No. So it that's where it cycles back to being a systemic problem. But we get into these groups and we can do this in so many different ways. But the nature of being virtual and very available to people is just the amount of presence that I find I'm able to bring that I cannot bring when I'm in a busy hospital environment. Or working in a practice where I know I have to see 30 patients in the day or whatever it's impossible to be present cuz your brain has to be on to the next thing.

Jessica:

Well, and that's I thinking about my experience and you and I talked about this when I was in a doctor's office room I constantly felt like they were running to the next, they were on in a schedule. They had to go, they had to move. I had to be prepared with my questions. And if I forgot something, I'd have to wait till the next meeting. And with you, like you just said, the beauty of this is that you're locked in. You know, we're looking at each other and we're having a conversation and there are no distractions around for either one of us. And there is something sort of secondary and the fact that like you're sitting in your own house, you feel comfortable, it's different than being in a hospital or a doctor's office, the whole experience just felt you know, much easier all around.

Tanya:

Well, and then even if we were to hang up and you forgot to ask me something, you shoot me a text message and go, oh, I forgot to ask you this one question. And then the conversation just continues or three hours later, something comes up and you're like, Hey, this thing just happened. Is that okay? Right. Right. And you know, I'm like, do we need to hop on a phone call? Do we need like, what, what do we need to do to make it right? Because that's, what's missing. Is this ability to just be fully present for people.

Jessica:

Yes. And people are, are craving that. So yeah. Totally. Thank you for being fully present for me.

Tanya:

Thank you. Thank you for trusting me.

Jessica:

Absolutely

Tanya:

Big virtual kisses. Thank you so for sharing your story today.

Jessica:

Of course. Thank you.