Gabi:

All right. Hi Gabby. It is so nice to see your face.

Tanya:

Same. It's very good to see you, Tanya. It's been a while. It feels like yesterday, but it has been a while.

Gabi:

Well, life just gets, gets moving and time passes. And before you know it, you have a baby. That's gonna turn one. Not too far from now. <Laugh>

Tanya:

It's true. I still can't believe it. When I think about, I still have those days so fresh in my mind, the first few weeks and months, she's, she's almost 10 months now. She's already 10 months. She already turned 10 months.

Gabi:

Yeah, well that, that's the funny thing. Right? So for our listener's sake here, Gabby is my daughter's name. And so we have Gabby here on the show and I have a daughter named Gabby, but then Gabby's baby. Alicia was born on my birthday. So there's all these funny little things that always made our experience together feel extra special. So that's kind of fun. So yeah, I'll turn 43 when your daughter turns one.

Tanya:

Oh, wow. Look at that. That's I remember when I scheduled my, when I scheduled the C-section cuz it was a C-section I'm sure we'll talk about that. I remember writing you about it and you were like, oh, that's my birthday. So it'll be, it's a special, special day. And I loved that. It was, it was sweet.

Gabi:

Yeah. I remember all of that, which is so fun. Okay. So just gimme a quick update on how you've been over the past, you know, I guess it's been maybe seven months or so since we've connected.

Tanya:

That's right. That's right. So things have been good. I feel, I feel like my head is, you know, out of the water and you know, I'm starting to feel that things are going back to normal now it's it, it took a lot longer than, than I thought actually before giving birth. I think we see moms going through motherhood from the outside and it seems like, you know, it, it, it goes back to normal quickly. You see them walking around with a baby and it seems like it's their new life and you know, they're just used to it. But I think whoever's living, it, it, it takes a little bit longer things have been great. I'm in Europe right now. Cause as you know, my husband Damas, he's half Belgian, half Spanish. And so we try to spend part of our summers in Europe, visiting his family since we're based in Mexico city. So we've been here for over a month now visiting his family and enjoying sort of enjoying the European summer. Cause whoever's here. It's been very hot. It's been an atypically hot summer. But things are good. Things are good. Alicia is super healthy. She's growing she's, you know, doing all kinds of fun stuff. Now she feels more like a human, less like a vegetable <laugh> And I'm really, I'm really enjoying it.

Gabi:

Cool. That's so nice to hear. So from, from my perspective, I asked you to come and talk on this show because you know, most of the people who come to me have an underlying mental health concern, right? They either have preexisting depression, anxiety, or both. It's very common. And people tend to be very concerned about mood disorders, but you know, a couple weeks ago I had someone on the show also I'm kind of trying to do with you as well. What I did with her, which is focus on people's stories that were essentially in air quotes, normal because I spent the first two seasons of the show talking so much about things that in air quotes, once again go wrong are problems are difficult. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and you know, I started thinking about those of you who I helped out along the way, who had those typical experiences, but that it doesn't mean that you didn't need support and didn't have tough times.

And ironically, you just started saying almost identically what she said, which is the essence of the statement was it's taken about a year for me to feel whatever my new normal is. Right. And so to hear two people who I look back on in comparison to others and say you had relatively normal experiences, you didn't have any significant complications or experience any particular mood disorders or anything like that. That doesn't mean it's not without challenges and therefore not without need for great support. And so I just, I wanted people to hear the stories of the people who had it, I'm using air quotes repeatedly easy <laugh> because there's no such thing as any of these things. Right. and I just, I really look forward to you sharing your story. It's very memorable to me. And I remember thinking a lot about how different it was to be working with you side by side at the same time as working with somebody who was having some really significant challenges. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but never feeling like, like you didn't need this or I shouldn't give you the time and attention. So let's start by, you already kind of give us a little bit of details about yourself, but tell, tell everybody just a little bit more about what you do and who you are. And then maybe we'll kind of take it back to the beginning and talk about the end of your pregnancy and your birth.

Tanya:

Okay. Sounds good. So I am originally in Brazilian actually. And I think that I, I say that because I think that speaks to part of the reason why I initially found it interesting to, to start working with you. I I'm originally Brazilian my family's Brazilian, but I grew up in various parts of the world, mostly Latin America in the us. I grew up in the us eventually. I grew up in the us. I moved there when I was 11. And after getting my, I, I, I went to school in the us, you know, university. I got my master's there and then I decided to go back to Latin America. And I've been living in Mexico for the past. I've been between Mexico and the us for the past eight years. So, and I'm, I'm the co-founder and COO of an, of an impact organization.

We, we run tech boot camps for young women from under resourced backgrounds and throughout Latin America, it's called LA that's our that's the organization that me and my, and my partners run. And like I said, I'm married to a half Belgian, half Spanish, so <laugh> multicultural household. And my family currently lives in the us as well. And so for me, it was important for me to be able to be close to them. So even though I'm always between the us and Mexico, because of my job, I was, I was in the us for my entire neonatal and birth and postpartum the first three months basically of my maternity to leave. I was there, so in the hands and I mentioned this because I was basically in the hands of the us system as I went through this experience. Right. So that's me at Lisa is my first daughter. I'm 37 years old. First time I'm saying that cuz my birthday was in July. <Laugh> happy

Gabi:

Birthday.

Tanya:

Thank you. And so yeah, that's, that's a little bit of me.

Gabi:

So you started by saying your, your Brazilian family and upbringing contributes to why you needed this extra layer of support. So tell us a little bit more about that.

Tanya:

Yeah. So one of the fundamental differences between the us healthcare system and the many, you know, I can't speak to all of Latin America cause I haven't lived in all countries there, but I've lived in a few and most of the Latin American health system is you have a very close relationship to the doctors in your life in Latin America. So, and what I mean by that is for example at least since we spend so much time in Mexico, at least also has a pediatrician in Mexico and I have him directly on WhatsApp, right. And I speak to him as often as I want and it's not someone else responding to the messages it's him. And same with my gynecologist, for example, who I went to my whole life in Brazil, you know, he sends me Christmas cards and I know his family and that's sort of the relationship that we have with our doctors is a, is a very close one.

So I say that because in an experience as transformative as you know, giving birth there's a sense, even though I, I now, after working with you have learned that even a very close experience with a doctor can have its limitations just because of the limitations of that profession. It feels before you go through this period, it feels that that's gonna be a support that you're gonna have. Which in the us, I felt like I wasn't right, because you don't have that relationship with, with doctors. You know, I, I can reach my doctor from nine to five, Monday through Friday, if I'm lucky, because usually there's either, you know, a secretary or, or nurses and you know, I, you don't have access directly to doctors. And I just couldn't imagine going through this, like you said, as normal in air quotes, as it, as it is to me, there was nothing normal about it. I was, you know, gonna go through this massively transformative experience, something that I had never done before that I didn't know how I was, how I was gonna feel what I was gonna need. There's no recipe book that says, you know, what you need to do or how you need to feel every woman's experience is different. So I, I just felt like I needed that support. And I reached out to a friend of mine who had worked with you, Kristen, who had twins. I think she also recorded an episode with you. Yep.

Gabi:

She was episode one of this season.

Tanya:

Oh, look at that. Okay. Yeah. And her husband and I have been best friends since we were in like middle school. And so she told me that, you know, you had been an incredible support for her and she highly recommended that I reach out to you.

Gabi:

So that's how it all came to be.

Tanya:

Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, that was the beginning sort of what made me feel that even though this was a quote unquote, you know, even though I didn't have any underlying health problems that made me feel that, you know, this was gonna be a particularly difficult thing to go through. I felt like just the idea of getting of being pregnant, giving birth and taking care of, you know, at Alicia in the first few months was something that I would need support with and more and different support than the kind you get from your parents. Right. Because, well, I'm sure we'll talk about that as well, but I remember writing you a lot about, oh my God, my mom's saying this, or, you know, I need, you know, other people are telling me this and it just doesn't feel right for me. And I think having the support of a professional who's, who's, you know, unbiased. And is there, you know, with years of experience to support you in your own independent experience I think is super valuable.

Gabi:

Yeah. I that's, I love to hear you spit that back out to me because I say that a lot, but I also understand that no human is without bias. I have a personal bias. Yeah. I try really hard to voice that to people and separate the evidence from my opinion, and then say to you, you plural repeatedly that I know that this is your body and your choice, and I'm gonna support you in whatever you need to do. And I can explain to you why I, I may hold a particular bias and then I can tell you what the science says, which of course in maternity care, the science is often so gray that it doesn't actually lead us to a clear answer, which then means all we're really doing is having an educated discussion and you still have a decision to make <laugh>. So exactly on that note, I, I, I think this is a perfect segue into the fact that one of the first things that we invested time and energy in was that you had a lot of questions about the actual birth process. And we were talking about app episiotomies and this, that, and the other thing, and then you said, hold up, the baby's breach and the baby's breach and the baby's not turning. And so then this conversation changed to what are my options here and what do I wanna do and how do I wanna do this? So tell us a little bit about how that unfolded.

Tanya:

Yeah. So the reason why I was so intrigued by all these other questions at first was because I personally was really excited about having a natural birth or natural quote unquote, I guess, cuz I was also looking forward to the epidural <laugh>

Gabi:

<Laugh> you mean vaginal birth? That's what, we're what

Tanya:

We're going for. I mean, vaginal. Yeah, that's correct. Thank you. Yeah. So I was really looking forward to having a vaginal birth for whatever reason. I think all of us, you know, we have, we have different reasons for wanting one choice for the other. I have friends for example, who wanted C-sections and they, you know, wanted to make sure they had doctors who were willing to schedule C-sections regardless of whether they had any complications or not. So I myself really wanted a vaginal birth. And I had never had one. This was my first child. And so I was looking forward to sort of learning about what that process might look like. And I, I did one of those, you know, birthing classes at the hospital, which my, which my obstetrician recommended and you know, it was all about, you know, breathing and going through labor and, and how, you know, how you, how you do that.

And then all of a sudden, you know, Alicia was breached in every single ultrasound where they could measure that she was breach. They started, you know, eventually saying, you know, there's a chance she might not turn at around week. I believe it was week 25 when they started telling me that, you know, like she's, she's, she's she's breached and let's see what happens, but there's a chance she might not turn. And I believe, I can't remember the weeks anymore, but at some point they did say, okay, she's breach. There's a chance she turns on her own, but we need to schedule a C-section just in case. And I remember that's when it sort of hit, hit me emotionally. And I remember I cried my way back from the obstetricians to my house, I think after texting you or my husband. And it was just, it felt, it, it felt like, like a disillusionment, like it felt like something that I was, you know, so looking forward to like a, an experience that I really wanted to have was, you know, I wasn't gonna be able to have that.

And, and I wasn't even sure why either, because I asked the doctor, you know, why is she breached? Because that's, at that point, I didn't know anything about anything anymore. I didn't know anything about vaginal birth. And I also didn't know anything about C-sections and you breach babies. It's it's a small percentage. I think it's like 5% of babies are breach. I don't think it's very common. Yeah. It's four you're right on 4%. Yep. So, so I hadn't done a lot of research about it either. So it, this was all new to me at that moment. And all of a sudden I kind of knew it was gonna be my experience. And that's when I reached out to you. And that's and you you talked to me about the external cephalic version as an option. Correct. And so I went back to my doctor, the next appointment that I had when it was sort of gonna be the confirmation of whether she was gonna, you know, be breach or not for, for, you know, when, when it came time around to, to, to give birth.

And I talked to him about it and it was really helpful because I remember you prepared me for it in many ways. Like you talked to me about it, you sent me resources, like going back to the bias thing perspective. Like, I think it's super helpful to hear what you think about it, but also, you know, you shared a bunch of resources with me, some podcasts that I listened to, some articles I read. And then you also helped me prep for the conversation that I had to have with him. And the, my, my obstetrician, he said, listen, I do not recommend that for you. He told me some of the science behind it. He said the chances were not great. And in my case, in particular, what happened was I had very little fluid. So I believe the minimum is like five or six.

I had eight which is not great for, for a version. They, they recommend you have a lot of fluid so that the baby has room to, to sort of move around. And, and the other thing that kind of made me wary of trying something like that was that they weren't sure why they couldn't tell why the baby had been breached for so long and wasn't moving. So what he said was, listen, we could try to move her, but then if her heart rate drops, if anything happens, we're gonna have to move you into an emergency C-section. So it's gonna be even worse because you're gonna have a C-section anyway, you'll have gone through the pain of this, of the external cephalic version, and now it's an emergency C-section where you won't be able to have like emotionally prepared for it. When I put everything on sort of, you know, I balanced everything out.

I, you know, tried to see, I, I looked inside me and, you know, talked to my husband about it and sort of my gut eventually changed. I was like, you know what? The most important thing for me before was for me to have this experience, the most important thing for me now is to make sure that she is healthy and she's fine, and she's fine. She was growing fine. She wasn't, you know, having any problems. So I, I was like, she wants to come out, you know, butt up first. I don't know. That's how she wants to come into the world. She's growing fine. I'm gonna let her do this her way. And then I think my mind sort of changed at that moment. And I, I just saw this as my, as the experience I was gonna have, and it was gonna be special in its own way.

Gabi:

Yeah. And you really managed that all very well. I remember kind of having to actively pull back a bit because you, you were so good about asking me exactly what it was that you needed to know, looking at the information, figuring out what your follow up questions were, and then also sitting with it on an emotional level, and then you would come back and you would tell me that you were clear on what you needed to do and your emotional state always represented that to me. Right? Like you made peace with it and we were done with it. It wasn't, mm-hmm, <affirmative> in other people's situations. This is the kind of thing that like creeps up on them over and over again, the woulda should have couldas all of that stuff. And you just didn't have any of that. Right. So I, I see.

Tanya:

Good to hear.

Gabi:

Yeah. I mean, you, you really made peace with it. And even now, as you sit here and tell the story, I did, it sounds like you are very clear that this was the right choice for you. And that's what matters. Right?

Tanya:

I did, I did 100% and I do think that's important also because I think we all create these ideas of what our experience is gonna be like, and for whatever reason, right? Because we have our, you know, desires and we have our wishes and, you know, we, we think we know what's best for us. And at the end of the day, like every experience is so unique and it is special in its own way. And it's, it's, it's my story. This was my story. And eventually I made peace with that. And I have, you know, you know, things I can share about this and things I feel about this that are different from, from other experiences there's pros and cons to every situation mm-hmm <affirmative>. That was also something that really helped. My, my doctor also said that he's like, you know what, Gabby, I promise you there's pros and cons to both.

I, I, I know you've been focusing on the advantages of what you wanted, and that was really great about him too. Like, cuz the day he told me I started, I wasn't just crying on the way home. I cried with the doctor <laugh> and the, I remember the, the, his assistant exited the room and, and left. When he, when she saw I was crying and she left me just with him and he was great. He sat with me, he sat down, he spoke to me and he said, I'm listening. Tell me how you're feeling like I'm here for you. And I think that was, that was really special because then at that point I felt like I was also not just in good hands with you, but I could trust whatever he was recommending as well. He wasn't just someone who was cold and inconsiderate of my feelings and just thinking about the medicine, he was there with me and making sure that this, you know, made sense for me.

And he did actually rec he did say, listen, if you want, I can put you in touch with a colleague that I trust that is a bit, you know, less risk, you know, less, more risk taker than me. And he can do an assessment with you. I do not recommend it and I will not do it. But if that's something you need to hear another opinion, I'm happy to do that. So I think that more humane way in which he addressed this topic in a more integral, holistic way with me was also really important for me to be at peace with it.

Gabi:

So it sounds like he also showed you his bias, but gave you options, right? So you had two people on two different ends of the spectrum. Yeah. Who were very honest and open about their, you know, baseline position. Then they were able to put it in relation to you. And I hear his point on two things. You, you had a baby who had a, just kind of borderline fluid level and she was also extremely persistently breach. So those were two things that were not in your favor. Right. So I get it. It was, it was a choice for you to make and you made it, I think the point I, I wanna bring us all back to, in terms of, you know, what our listeners are taking home from this is we cannot separate the birth from the postpartum experience. Gabby's postpartum experience was going to be somehow related to the type of birth experience that she had, no matter what. And so the things she came home with be they physical concerns, physical aches and pains and her emotional response to the situation were all equally relevant. And so while she may have had to recover from her C-section mentally, she didn't really have anything she had to recover from. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so had she had a different experience, it would've been a different set of characteristics and issues that we focused on and addressed. So we got what we got and we moved on from there. Right. Okay.

Tanya:

So exactly.

Gabi:

I know that we, we all, we both have time constraints today, so I'm gonna keep us moving forward in your story. 

Tanya:

Please do.

Gabi:

Okay. So the next thing I remember other than right, your, your, the C-section was smooth and your postpartum recovery was smooth, but the first thing you told me that really was upsetting to you and that needed some additional support that can happen to anyone. Unfortunately, once again, due to some of the structural things in our healthcare system is that for two whole days in the hospital, you did not see a lactation consultant and you were both relatively and upset about that. <Laugh>

Tanya:

I was, I was both things. I was very upset and I was very off. And actually it's funny cuz in the, in the birthing class one of the recommendations they had given to us is that for us mothers who were intending to breastfeed, you never know if you're gonna be able to do it or not and how that experience is gonna go. But right, if you have the intention of breastfeeding, they highly recommended that we say that we are exclusively breastfeeding so that we could have access to the lactation consultant so that we could guarantee. So what I said was great, this is my first time. I'm gonna say, you know, I'm hoping to be an exclusive breast feeder. And I'm gonna put that in. So you signed papers that say that, which basically means the hospital can't give the baby formula unless it goes through some bureaucratic process.

At least that's how I was in the hospital where I was. So here I am now claimed as an exclusive breast feeder and at, without having the ability to, you know, give another another option to my baby. And yet I had absolutely no support. So the lactation consultant for whatever reason, just didn't come and what made it, you know, even more you know, nerve wracking and, and, and difficult for me was that every nurse that came in, because they will measure your, you know, pressure and your temperature, like 18 times in a day, I'm not sure why that's relevant, but you know, every time they would come in and interrupt your sleep and interrupt your rest and whatever they would tell me, oh, the lactation consultants here, like she'll be coming around. Oh, the lactation. And I'm tied to my bed cause I have a C-section I can't move. And I, you know, I never, I was never able to, to, to see her. Wow. She actually, sorry, just to be fair. She did come, we were packing on the third day at the hospital about an hour before checking up.

Gabi:

Oh wow. That's that's really something. So did she spend some time with you at that point or did she just kinda like say hi? Oh, it looks like you're leaving goodbye. <Laugh>

Tanya:

Well, she did. She spent some time with us. She was very so, so I had the opposite experience with her. Like as soon as I saw her, I, I again started crying because I was so angry at her that she hadn't come around because just, just to give some perspective. The second night Alicia is quite the eater. She, and the second night at the hospital, she did not leave my breast for five and a half hours from 10:00 PM to 3:00 AM. I, every time I unplugged her, she would start screaming and belching. And the nurses said, you know, it's on demand while she wants it. You know, you have to put her on there. And I still had colostrum at this point. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> the milk hadn't come in yet. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, I'm, that's why

Gabi:

She was acting like that.

Tanya:

Right. Because she's not being fed and in, you know, and I had no support and they're like, the nurses were great. They were trying to support me, but they're not specialists in this field. And so they, you know, it's, it was limited sort of the support I felt from them. And so I was so angry with her. I started crying and then as soon as this happened, she immediately turned to my husband to explain to him what was happening to me emotionally. And I was like, hello? Oh my God, this is terrible.

Gabi:

Yeah, no good.

Tanya:

So it was, it was not a good experience. Eventually I was so desperate that yeah. I asked her a bunch of questions. And at this point, you know, I had, I had, my, my nipples were bruised and, you know, I had, you know, an, an open sore on one of them. It was, it was, it was not great. And, and here's another thing like from other horror stories, I've heard, like my story is, was normal. Lisa hasn't, you know, I never had a problem with her latching on she was just super hungry and I was going through this process of not knowing whether I was feeding her correctly, you know, what I needed to do when I went home, which was gonna be the most important part of this, of these first few weeks is like, you know, feeding her cuz that's what she, she was gonna be doing every two hours. And and so yeah, I, I did not feel the support I needed. Not even not before, not during my stay and not when, not during my conversation with her.

Gabi:

Yeah. And so what we did to try to write that wrong for you was we very quickly involved Kimberly Weiss Lewis, one of my favorite international board certified lactation consultants who has also been on this podcast, I'll make sure to link to that episode. And in that episode, we actually talk about exactly what we did with Gabby. And I think we actually recorded this episode while we were working with Gabby or just as Gabby was kind of weaning off of the need for us. And we did that because I think we had a profound experience in working with you. And that was the way Kim and I worked together, I think was so cool. And

Tanya:

I'm curious for me, it was if

Gabi:

You can, so, so remind us exactly like I don't you just kind of clue us in, I think you come home, you've got wounded nipples, but you have a sense that you don't really have a big problem. Things are starting to normalize as your milk comes in. Right. But, so what was it that you needed from Kim that Kim was able to give you and why did that work so well virtually?

Tanya:

So there were a few things. The first thing is I had a sense that I was not gonna be one of those moms, you know, that was gonna breastfeed eternally forever. I, I wanted to start having some, you know, liberties to be away from my daughter and that not mean she wasn't being fed. Right. So, and I also didn't want to pump nonstop because what happened was Alicia was taking up pretty much everything I had. And so when I would pump, I wasn't getting a lot, so I wasn't able to store a lot either. So I knew that if I was gonna be exclusively breastfeeding for a, for a while, I needed this to be, you know, as efficient as possible and as good of an experience as possible. So I wanted to introduce a bottle early on so that I could also, so that my husband could feed her so that I could, you know, eventually have, you know, three or three and a half hours of being able to go out and see a friend and come back and know that she was gonna be fine.

And, and so this, so one of the things I was reaching out for was to understand that whole dynamic, right? So what do I do with the bottle? What bottle do I need? Because I had tried a bottle that my friend had given me and it wasn't working. She wasn't, she wasn't grasping well onto the bottle's nipple, there were a few things there. The supply thing was, it's funny, cuz I'm saying this now that you know, Alisa was super chubby baby always. And she was in the 90th percentile of weight at every pediatrician visit. And I remember Kim, once I had one, I had a session with her and I was super concerned that Alisa wasn't getting enough because Alisa was always crying when I took her, when I took her off the breast and every, you know, I wouldn't even make it to two hours, like an hour and a half after feeding her, she was, she wanted more. And Kim was like, can I see her? Cause at that point she was with my mom. I remember this, I bring her to this. She's like, like Gabby, your child has no problem <laugh>.

And I was like, really? Is this what they're supposed to look like? Of course, like we have, we have no references. Right. It was really funny. And so that was another reason. I, I, for some reason, despite my daughter's weight, I, I felt like she wasn't being well fed. And the third thing was the third thing that I was concerned about was how long she was on the breast. So I, Lisa would be on the breast for about 30 minutes, 40 minutes in the beginning. Mm-Hmm

Gabi:

<Affirmative>

Tanya:

I remember that. And yeah, that was, I, I actually, I say it as a third reason, but I think that was the main one. So those three reasons were, you know, why I was sort of freaking out a bit <laugh> in the

Gabi:

Beginning. Yeah. And so a lot of our work together was a combination of essentially convincing you that things were really okay. And giving you the strategies that Alicia needed and you needed both of you, I suppose, to get those feeds, to tighten up a bit. And that tends to happen over time as babies get more skilled. But we were able to kind of get you moving in that direction. It took a few weeks. Right. So what it did, what I remember also is that the first few weeks you talked incessantly about having an extremely well behaved baby, that slept really well. And I kept saying to you, and I felt horrible. I kept saying to you, I promise you that's gonna change at some point. So I need you to kind of prepare yourself <laugh> it usually happens between weeks three and four. And then you called me at exactly three weeks and you were like losing your mind over this like sudden onset of colic. <Laugh>

Tanya:

So exactly. You

Gabi:

Know, that's again, why I wanted you to talk on this show because we focused heavily on breastfeeding for three weeks and then all of a sudden breastfeeding was no longer the primary issue, a crying baby was the primary issue. And that went on for like the next three weeks, right? Yeah. So our efforts were always shifting on the fly to something else that was taking up all of your bandwidth and then some right,

Tanya:

Exactly, exactly. And I think that's what made the work that you and Kim did with me, so interesting as well, because I remember you, I, I was able to speak to both of you, you coordinate with both of you, my situation, and you brought in your perspective, she brought in her perspective as a specialist in, in sort of the breastfeeding arena. And like you mentioned, the breastfeeding became less of an urgent need, but at Alicia's, you know, my breastfeeding experience would also also evolved. So I remember kind of going back to Kim mm-hmm <affirmative> every, every, you know, I don't know, four or five weeks or so, you know, I would go back to her and be like, listen, this is happening now. And, and this new phase, I don't know how to navigate anymore. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> can you help me here? And I think that's what makes it so interesting because even though it's, again, quote unquote, normal there, we don't know what we're doing.

We don't and it's, it's new and a lot of it is instinct. Great. Yeah. But, but also if you wanna be, you know, sure. Or not sure, I don't know if you ever are sure. But if you wanna feel fine with that what you're doing is working for you and for the baby, for you as well. I think that's super important. It's helpful to have these people who kind of give you these outside perspectives. Right. And so yeah, that, and weeks three, it was colleagues. And that was, I don't know if you remember, that was my only moment when you probably were like, okay, well she's, <laugh> not so normal anymore. I freaked out. No,

Gabi:

Actually it was perfectly normal. That's the thing. It was just that. Yeah, you, you were sort of unprepared for that shift. And many people are, because what happened to you is not uncommon, but you had a baby that was sleeping just like fantastic. And you thought I'm home free. And I was like, Ugh, this is gonna backfire. Right. And, and it did for a minute. And then you kind of figured it out. It was funny as I was looking at your notes, there was nearly a page of suggestions of how to deal with colic because, and that tells me how much of a, you know, pit stop we took on that subject. But I think when that happens, right, it, it, everything just compounds on itself. The lack of sleep, the crying is so upsetting, right? It's, it's the most upsetting thing. When you have a baby that you cannot figure out how to get it to stop crying.

It's mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's a very hard challenge. Does doesn't matter that it's normal or common, it's incredibly challenging. So at that point we had you go see Jen, my, my dear mental health, perinatal mental health expert, who I send everybody to because, and she's been on the show too. I'll link everybody to these shows. Jen has this incredible way of dealing with people. That's also very unique in which she can have a singular session with someone and change their perspective. It's like this outlet. So tell us a little bit about what happened when you saw Jen, cuz I know that you had kind of an intense cathartic experience talking to her too.

Tanya:

Yeah. And that was a really important moment in my, in my process for sure, because it was the colleagues and the incessant crying, but it was also, and I remember you made sure that I, you, you were always reminding me of this because I thought that a lot of me going crazy was due to the hormones. And I remember you, you would always say it's also the sleep Gabby. It's also the sleep mm-hmm <affirmative> and it's amazing how important sleep is and how little we realize it until you don't have it. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and it was amazing to me how I was, I remember you saying this to me and I was like, it's not that I'm fine. Cuz I remember like Alicia would wake up. I was waking up three, four times a night to breastfeed her and it, I was able to do it.

I was able to stay awake. No problem. The 20, 25 minutes, cuz remember it took a while to get her down to the five to seven minutes that she should have been on each breast. And I felt like I was fine and I wasn't realizing how much the sleep factor was affecting my, my emotions and my emotional state at the time. And the conversation with Jen was super important because at this point I was feeling a lot of anxiety. I felt a lot of fear for Alicia's safety. Something interesting that happened to me is that a lot of moms I've spoken to, they share that their anxiety came from feeling that they were gonna do something to the baby, that they were gonna not, not harm the baby because they were going through postpartum depression. That's also something, but in this case it was more like, because I don't know what I'm doing.

I'm scared of making a bad decision. That's gonna, you know, or I'm gonna fall asleep and the baby's gonna fall down. Or, and for me it was never that like I was confident about my ability to take care OFA, but I was not confident. And this overwhelming state of anxiety sort of take took over of just the world of, you know, her. And I remember I had these moments of paranoia, like what if she gets kidnapped or you know, these things that are, are not common. And I spoke to Jen and I think at that moment, honestly, I think the most important thing that we, as moms who are going through that need is just first of all, empathy, right? To hear someone who says this, I hear you. It's okay. This day you're going through is perfectly normal and common. I, I'm not sure if she says that to everyone, even if they're not common, but if it, it, it, it helps so much to just know that you're not alone in this and that this is a process that all, you know, women and mothers have been going through.

And the most important thing to me was, you know, this too shall pass mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I remember thinking, you know, when you're in it, you feel like it's going to last forever. Like, I, I, I remember being like, this is it. My life is over <laugh> I'm gonna have this angst, you know, constantly about Elise's life. And it was with everything. It was with the way my husband carried her. It was, you know, when we were going outside for a walk, it was the thought of, you know, after my maternity leave, going back to Mexico and I hadn't been there with her yet. So I didn't know what life in Mexico was gonna be like with a baby. And all of these things made me feel extremely anxious. And I remember that conversation with her, like you're saying for whatever reason, I don't even remember the specific thing she told me, but I just remember leaving that conversation feeling like I, I was gonna be okay that I just had to like survive this moment. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and I was gonna end up on the other side and I just wanna add one more thing, which a friend of mine said to me, and I think this was so helpful to me. She said the worrying Gabby is forever. Like the worrying is, is, is forever. But the, I don't know how it translates. The, the anxiety aspect of it, like the, the, I don't know how you say that in English,

Gabi:

Angst,

Tanya:

Angst, the, the angst. Okay. So I was right before. Yeah. So the angst is temporary and it goes by and it goes away and it goes away faster than you think. And I think that was so helpful to me to be able to separate, like know that this was not just me normally worrying about my daughter and her wellbeing. This was something that was not, you know, good for me, but it was going to pass. Yeah.

Gabi:

More like distress rather than angst, but it just kind of sounded that way to me. Like, but it's all the same words. It's like all the feelings that are so pent up, you know? Yeah. All of it is normal. And I think that is what Jen magically does because it doesn't even matter if somebody's experiencing a more extreme version of something. People still need to hear how common these things are. And those words, common and normal. We use them interchangeably too often. That's one of the only things I'll say. And so sometimes I think people hear the other word when we use one of them and we knew we do need to differentiate between common and normal. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> what you are describing with hindsight. Right. I don't even, I don't consciously remember this because again, how do I just introduced you as somebody who had a quote unquote normal experience and I'm listening to you going, oh, she really did deal with some anxiety there mm-hmm <affirmative> your stuff was very brief.

And you had, you had an amazing ability to overcome pretty quickly. Like you would gather your troops and I would add in another layer of support for you and it would be done. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> it never, it never stuck. And it never took O took you over or took over you mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think that's the bar for me, so right. It's like, I don't like lines in the sand. I think that's always been one of my problems with being a healthcare provider. Are you 35 or not? Are you whatever it is, like these things that we use and it's just like, oh, come on. It just doesn't work like that. And so I never look at anything as black or white when it comes to healthcare and especially maternal healthcare. And so, yeah. Can I see that slope? And you were a little higher up on the slope for a moment. Yeah. But I'm not sure it left the realm of normal because everyone goes through a little moment or phase let's say. Yeah. And you just, you, you have an ability to overcome that is special and unique. And I think that that's what made you fall into this, you know, when I pull back the lens of fairly normal category mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so, okay. Another thing that we shifted into, I think that may have come out of the colic piece, you ended up working with Kayla, the sleep coach, right?

Tanya:

Yeah, yeah,

Gabi:

Yeah. So you are someone so interesting who like hit every pit stop. I have programmed along the way for people which not everybody uses or takes advantage of. So once again, here I am saying how normal you were, but you were also extremely proactive. And so what I'd like to know, and we'll never know is what would Gabby's experience have been like if she hadn't had all this support? Like we have no way I knowing idea <laugh>

Tanya:

So, but you know what I think, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

Gabi:

No, no, I wanna hear what you have to say.

Tanya:

No, I was gonna say, I think we are so strong. Like we women in this moment, mothers, we are so strong and I know that in a way, you know, I had the privilege of having been introduced to you and the privilege to be able to, you know, afford services and talk to specialists and have a support network around me that, you know, supported these decisions as well. And, you know, and yes, it was super helpful. I think if I hadn't had it, would I have made it? Yes, I would've made it, but I think I would've enjoyed the process less. And I think looking back now, I'm so grateful to myself and to you and to everyone who supported me in this process, because I think looking back, I was able to enjoy Alicia so much more in these first few months. And I'm so grateful for that because I, I look back at photos of this, of this, you know, of these first few months.

And I think back on conversations I had and memories I have and they bring me, they bring me joy. And I think in, in a huge part that's because I wasn't so filled with anxiety. There's so many unknowns that it's kind of, you know, a shame that we have to figure this out by ourselves, you know, and that these services aren't widely available to everyone who's going through this experience. So I think I would've made it. I'm confident that I would've survived, but it wouldn't have been half as enjoyable. And, and I think that that's a huge part of being a mom. That's why we're here too, to, to enjoy the ride.

Gabi:

Wow. That was such a nice way of putting it. Ugh. That was great. Thank you for saying that. Ugh. Okay. So can you remind us a little bit about what your work was with Kayla when it came to sleep? So just for who, whoever doesn't know who Kayla is, I talk about these people all the time. I act like you should know them, but if you're new, you might not. Kayla is the pediatric sleep coach that I refer to most frequently and we work together a little the way Kim and I work together. Like we just make sure to balance each other out, bring, bring each other's perspectives and keep everything really cohesive. So what was the main thing you were focusing on with Kayla?

Tanya:

So the main thing I was focusing on was Alisa's lack of naps because at, at night she, I mean, she didn't sleep a lot in the beginning because she, she was breastfeeding very often, but she didn't have an extremely atypical from what I understood about babies and their cycles at the, at the, at that age that she didn't have a very atypical, you know, night sleep situation. So I wasn't, you know, going crazy over that, but she didn't nap. She was never taking naps during the day. And that concerned me. And when, sorry, she, that's not true. She was taking naps. So she was taking like 25 minute naps. I remember on the dot and that was concerning me because I was, I kept reading about how, you know, if they're not longer, they don't rest. She was supposed to be taking, I think it was four or five naps a day. She was taking maybe two or three. So that's what I was hoping to talk to Kayla about. Mm-Hmm

Gabi:

<Affirmative>. And what were you able to change her sleep pattern in a way that, that made you happier? Or did she just make you feel better about the current situation? What happened there?

Tanya:

So this is the beauty also about, you know, you having all these specialists that work together and that know each other in your network is because she was able to very quickly identify that Alicia was napping, but she was napping on my breast, which is why

Gabi:

I remember now my,

Tanya:

Which is why my feeds were taking so long mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I kind of knew that because she would, she would kind of doze off. She would close, she would breastfeed with her eyes closed. She wasn't very active, but she was still sucking and she was gaining weight. So I kept thinking she wasn't sleeping on my breast. And so all of these sort of, you know, she was able to connect the dots very quickly. I had a 30 minute session with her I think, and I, I, I gave her sort of, you know, my concerns and what Alisa was like. And she was very quickly able to identify that gave me some very useful tips. Again, was very respectful of my own decisions in this process, but sort of gave me the resources and hacks and stuff that I could try. If I felt comfortable with them. And it was almost like overnight at Alicia was, you know, taking naps and my breastfeeding, you know, had gone down to, I think from 20 minutes to, you know, 10 and then eventually to five

Gabi:

On each breast is what you're saying

Tanya:

On each breast. Yeah.

Gabi:

And are you still breastfeeding?

Tanya:

I'm not, I stopped. So I breast fed exclusively till about five months Uhhuh. Then I had to take a work trip. So I, I started introducing formula and then I breast fed until seven months. So when she turned eight months, I, I stopped. Yeah. And,

Gabi:

And you're happy with your journey the way you worked that

Tanya:

Out. I am excellent. I am very much, yeah, very much so.

Gabi:

Cool. Very good. Alright. In our final moments together, there were a few things I had slated to chat about, but I know we have a hard stop, so I'm gonna give you some choices and you can tell me what you think is most interesting. Okay. I, I went through your notes and noticed that you played tennis at 10 and a half weeks. And I thought that was really interesting. I didn't remember that. So I'm curious if you have thoughts about your physical recovery. Okay. I also was curious if you had thoughts about how your relationship evolved, because I do distinctly remember that as we were wrapping up, you were dealing with some of the big changes that happened for people in our relationship dynamics. And then the last thing we don't probably don't have to unpack, but I think it's interesting for people to hear. There was a moment to fear in which Alicia may have needed surgery on her hips, which is something common and breach persistently breach babies mm-hmm <affirmative>, and that did not come to fruition, which was great. So any thoughts around those things as we, we move towards wrapping up?

Tanya:

So I think just to the first and third point to the tennis point and to the fear surgery and hip, I, I, I see these, I relate them because I think these are the kinds of things that I think happen in every experience, right? So in every experience you're gonna have, you're gonna go to all these doctor's visits and you're gonna get all this information on all these opinions from doctors, and you're gonna have to know what to do with that. And those can be sources of one anxiety and two, you, you, I feel like you need a support system to help you, you know, make those decisions. And the time was, it was funny because when I was, you know, thinking about preparing for this, for this podcast, also talking to you, I, I remembered that I hadn't remembered that I played tennis at 10 and a half weeks.

And I think, I remember now being like, oh my God, I can't believe I played tennis at 10 and a half weeks <laugh>. And at the time I felt like I was, you know, it was as if my baby had been born three years before I felt kind of like a failure that it was, you know, taking me kind of so long to, to recover. And I think it's, it's important because that perspective, again, I always go back to this because when you're in it, you feel like a failure in many ways. And now in hindsight, I'm like, my God, that's amazing at 10 and a half weeks postpartum. So I say this just to remind people that, however it is, you're feeling it's normal, but also be able, you know, be patient with yourself. And, and I think that's a beautiful thing too, is like every baby has its own developmental milestones.

They reach 'em at different ages. And also I think us moms do too, right. Our bodies recover at different spaces. We go through different things. So we prioritize differently in those first few months. And because I had gone through a C-section, I had to, you know, I couldn't lift anything heavier than the baby for, I think it was six weeks. And so my recovery, my physical recovery took a little bit longer, but now I actually feel proud that I was able to, to start not so long after that. And, and to the point of relationships, yes, this was something, so one of the things I did is I also took your course online. Right. and I remember one of the sessions with Jen and the other psychologist. I forget her name. She, I remember said something. I think your question was about, you know, what people can expect regarding, you know, sort of baby blues and, and sort of the, the, feel, the emotions after, you know, in the postpartum period.

And she mentioned she mentioned saying one of the things that no one talks about is you are going to change the way you feel about your partner. And I remember I saw that I saw that session afterwards after giving birth. I hadn't seen it before. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I remember thinking, like, I wish I had heard this before, because I that's, that's exactly what happened to me. Like, I felt differently about my partner and that was a whole new, that was a whole new, you know, experience that I didn't expect. So that sort of hit me, you know, kind of like a in, in, in Brazil we say like a bucket of cold water because it, you know, shook, it shook me up and I was like, this is not something that I thought I was gonna have to deal with. Right. on top of everything else on top of my body, my lack of sleep, my hormones, my baby, trying to make my baby survive.

I remember I was anxious about SIDS as well. In the first few days you helped me out with that as well. I didn't think that was gonna happen. And I think the most important thing, I think we could do a whole episode about this. So I'm not gonna, I don't know how eloquent I'm gonna be having just a few minutes to address it, but I think it's, it's so important to recognize that understand that that's something that, that happens. And now I know it happens to a lot of women and no one talks about this because I think it's one of the arenas where we are most inclined to pretend that everything's fine to the outside world. And all of a sudden my husband said it best. He is like, of course we're going through something. I mean, we just had a stranger enter our intimacy.

Right. Mm. And it's, and it's such an interesting way of thinking about it because it's true. Like all of a sudden, the most important person in my life and the most important in hi person in his life is a stranger mm-hmm <affirmative> is a stranger who is extremely demanding mm-hmm <affirmative>. And all of a sudden is between us in a way, and we have different ways of, of, of relating to this child also. And we start seeing our partner in a, in a completely different light. And I think I'm lucky to have, you know, a supportive partner, someone who I can speak to about the things that I'm feeling someone who will listen to me and who understands me, and we are not out of the woodwork yet. Like I still, I think this is probably the longest part of the postpartum period is not the physical aspect is not the coming to terms with motherhood.

It's, you know, rebuilding the relationship with your partner which can be it's in a way, the way I'm seeing it now, which I think it makes me super, you know, excited in a way is to think about it as also like part of the evolution of this relationship is like it's entering a new phase and we're gonna have to, you know, rediscover ourselves and fall in love in a different way with these new people that have that we've sort of become after the birth of Alicia. So it's definitely a challenging part of the postpartum period. I'm, I'm blessed to have had the opportunity to understand that and, and, and have enough people tell me that this is normal. I remember you asking me about it too, about, you know, our physical relation and, and, and how things were in that department. And you always brought it back and it's always hard to talk about, but I'm so happy that I knew that this was gonna be something that we were gonna have to work through.

Gabi:

Yeah. And so kind of on a final note, cuz I haven't really spoken directly to the healthcare providers listening. I think that's the takeaway that I want the healthcare providers to hear from this episode is that it is on us to ask the hard questions.

Tanya:

Yeah, for sure.

Gabi:

Our clients are so overwhelmed with so many things that they just, it falls too low on the totem pole of the, of the chain of survival that relationship stuff, unless we help them bring it up into conscious awareness. And it has to be done sometimes over and over and over again to tease out what's really going on because it starts with feeling resentful and angry and then we have to get underneath that. And I think the other reason I'm really passionate about this is because mm-hmm <affirmative> you know, I was a really young mom. We've have talked about that. A number of times on the show I was 20 and I was entirely unprepared for this and no one ever spoke to me about it, no one ever helped me and it's taken me 20 years of life to face what I didn't understand and think about how my life could've been different if I had had help and support in that department. And so it's something that I don't shy away with shy away from. And I talk to everyone about this stuff because someone's gotta do it. <Laugh>

Tanya:

100% and we need to start talking about it, to remove the taboo about it as well. Like if we understand it as normal, we can prepare for it and we can, you know, include it as part of the normal process. So yeah, a hundred percent. And I'm so sorry. You had to, you had to go through that experience in that way.

Gabi:

Yeah. But it, it helped me to be able to do what I do now. So it is what it is. I, I take it all in stride.

Tanya:

That's true.

Gabi:

All right. I know you have a meeting that you are now three minutes late for, and I respect your time. So I'm gonna let you go. I thank you so much for sharing your story and we'll have to finish catching up shortly

Tanya:

For sure. Tanya, thank you so much. And thank you for doing this. I was happy to be a part of it because I think it's so important for us to hear other stories and gain other perspectives and feel like we're, we're not alone in this. So thank you so much for, for doing this.

Gabi:

My pleasure and send Alicia until miss my love.

Tanya:

Thank you. I will have a great

Gabi:

Day.

Tanya:

Bye you too. Bye bye.