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Ep. 52 Reflecting on two very different birth experiences with Mother Wit Mama, Sarah Holiday

Sarah 0:00

She began to understand who I was as a person and what was important to me in life, whether it was her beliefs or not. And I, she was very neutral about things. You know, she believed she, she, I found similarities between her and you, where we live in this medical world. And yes, there's a lot of things that are medically necessary all the time. Absolutely not. And she lived in the gray area, which I appreciate because I am I believe that same thing. Where, yes, metal medical information is amazing. And it saves lives. And we've made such advancements. But a lot of things are super normal, and we need to let them play out.

Tanya Tringali 0:49

Hey, everyone, I'm your midwife, Tanya Tringali. Welcome to the mother whip podcast, a show about the issues we healthcare consumers and providers face every day as we interact with the medical system. We'll talk about its blind spots, shortcomings, and share strategies we can use to feel seen and heard no matter which side of the table we sit on.

It's been a long time since I've done a client story. Man, that's mainly because I've got a crop of clients right now who have been working with me for a really long time. And their stories are still in process. And so I've just kind of put that off, because I don't want to squander the opportunity to get the whole story and share the whole story if they're willing to share when they're ready to share. But today's story is great, because it's a client that I started working with during her first pregnancy during the pandemic. We've stayed in touch over the years. And she has recently had a second baby. And the story sort of about her journey to midwifery care towards the type of care that she had always really wanted, and had challenges getting. And even once she got it, there were more challenges. But she did such a great job kind of accepting what was. And I'm really proud of her. And I think it's a story that people need to hear because we need to feel like we have the power to make these kinds of changes in our lives and in our healthcare. I hope you appreciate this story with my friend Sarah. How are you? Congratulations.

Sarah 2:48

Thanks. Um, things have been pretty, pretty good. I can't deny the second time around. It's been drastically different than the first.

Tanya Tringali 2:58

Ah ha, I'm pretty sure it's always that way.

Sarah 3:00

Yeah, I kind of figured it would be. But there was definitely a part of me that was a little scared just from the roadblocks. So I hid the first time and just how emotional it was. But no, everything has been better.

Tanya Tringali 3:12

So it's been, it's been easier,

Sarah 3:15

So much easier. Like, I feel, I feel 10 times more confident just as a mother as a person. My only big thing is just navigating now two because I realized yesterday that I feel like I have to be two different moms to two different people. And so that's, that's been really tough for me. And then also, I'm so bonded with Jack, more so than I was with Liam at this time.

Tanya Tringali 3:44

And it's because you're in a tough place emotionally,

Sarah 3:47

Right. It's showing a massive preference. So I have to make more of an effort to give Liam everything he needs emotionally, physically, everything. It's more of an effort than Jack like I just want to give my whole entire self to him.

Tanya Tringali 4:03

Do you feel like you're trying to soak up and make up for what you didn't have that first time?

Sarah 4:10

That was my goal was was to really enjoy this newborn stage. And just to just try to relax and enjoy time and I happen. But then for Leah, I mean, it's not like Liam's being mistreated. But with breastfeeding, it's just you know, Jack is attached to me the majority of the time. Yeah. It's all normal. And I know it is but I still feel some massive guilt. Just from Yeah.

Tanya Tringali 4:40

How old is Liam now?

Sarah 4:43

He has he'll be two and a half later this month.

Tanya Tringali 4:47

Holy moly.

Sarah 4:48

Has it been that long and went wild?

Tanya Tringali 4:51

So when did we talk last? I think it was in the early part of this pregnancy. Is that right?

Sarah 4:59

I believe so. Be cuz I was debating Well, no, I wasn't debating. I definitely wanted to go midwife. But we were chatting about which midwife to go to things to look out for, and that sort of thing. You're giving me opinions on people's websites, and the whole midwives in North Carolina? And

Tanya Tringali 5:19

Oh, yeah, I remember now it was like, the laws around CPMs and homebirth, and all of this stuff. And we were trying to like sort that through and figure out how to meld what you wanted with what was easiest to access and cost and all of those things,

Sarah 5:34

Right? Yeah. Oh, that was, that was a ride. But it didn't end up being that difficult to find someone in a CNM was not going to happen just because there's maybe five, maybe five around in the whole state.

Tanya Tringali 5:52

And CNMs, there were five?

Sarah 5:56

There's my there's just a handful, and they had like small practices where they had assistants and whatnot. But they were but like, I found out I was pregnant. Before my missed period, it was like the same with Liam I tracking it down to the hour. I dealt with this is happening. So I know when I'm expecting to so I was testing religiously. So I knew and I started contacting CNMs that same day. So it's finding finding somebody was impossible, because they were already booked. I feel like they were booked before people were even pregnant.

Tanya Tringali 6:37

That's the joke in big cities. And I can speak for New York City in particular. But the joke is, you better have your home birth midwife, like locked down the day you have your first positive pregnancy test, or you're missing out because even in a city like New York, where there are ballpark 25, home birth midwives, it fills up really quick because you know, they take a much smaller load than hospital based midwives, or OB is, but I did not expect to hear this about CNMs in North Carolina, but it's obviously a product of how few there are two, does that also mean that there's like a are you saying there's a bunch of CPMs? Many, far fewer? Nope, backwards, a far fewer, the opposite of far fewer whatever that is many more?

Sarah 7:24

I believe. So yes, I think I had posted to this Facebook group about, you know, midwives, North Carolina, finding somebody and the CPMs are pretty much underground, quote unquote, because they can't practice legally or whatever the right language is for it. So technically, the one that I came with, she's licensed in South Carolina. So that's perfectly great. And then wouldn't signing all of my paperwork, and it says, I'm not licensed in North Carolina, please check this box boxes if you acknowledge that. Covering everybody's butts there.

Tanya Tringali 8:08

So how many weeks pregnant? were you when you finally sorted out what you were going to do? And what were you doing in the meantime? Like, were you seeing someone until you sorted through this? Or did you get it done so fast that you didn't have to

Sarah 8:20

I got it done really quick, probably within the first two weeks of finding out. I think I chatted with one other CPM over the phone, and I just did not get a good vibe. I'm not sure what it was. But the conversation was was a struggle. And I just always felt like when you when you meet the right person, you you just know. And so that the first one I talked to was was it now. And then I talked to the midwife that I ended up working with. We we clicked immediately, we had like an hour conversation. The first go around talking about previous pregnancies, everything and what I was looking for, and what you know, how it all would work. And that was spectacular. So within probably the first couple of weeks, so I was stressed about it, obviously, but it didn't take very long and I was I waited much longer to even to see her in person than I did to find her so

Tanya Tringali 9:19

and so I would love it actually, if you would take us back to the pandemic and your first pregnancy. Like go there if you can handle it is emotionally okay to do it's fine.

Sarah 9:33

I revisit it a lot

Tanya Tringali 9:37

because you've grown so much. And it's your whole the arc of your journey from where you started to where you are now and I obviously know you have so much more like your life ahead. But already there's so much to learn from your experience. So take us back there and tell us what you understood about healthcare and obstetrical care in general, and where you are at and how that interfaces with around the time we start working together and then where it goes from there.

Sarah 10:09

Right. Okay, so starting back to the beginning. I think I fairly well knew going into becoming pregnant. obstetric care was really lacking and just women care in general. I just knew that just as being as a lady, and going through the realm. But the biggest concern leading up to finding you was my mental states and how I had suffered with anxiety and depression for the great majority of my life, knowing that going into pregnancy, I figured that would be an issue. So when I first when I first found out, we were pregnant, we were back in California. We had met with an OB I had never met before. And she she actually was really spectacular, but we were moving within a few months. So then finding another care in North Carolina was challenging doing that from afar, so I could have my appointments when I got there, because I was becoming do to get them roughly monthly. I think I ended up there in my second trimester. And I wanted to go midwife, and I had been hunting and there was one birth center that had just closed down the year prior to us moving out where we are currently that was local. And the other one was so far away that I was concerned that it would be a problem which, which we'll get to why that's funny now, later, so that birth center closed down. I couldn't find any, any midwives. Other than that, and I didn't really know where to look, I was super. So I would say stunted and I wasn't really sure where to search. And then I think I ended up finding you through Instagram through Juna, and during my pregnancy, and it was a fairly normal pregnancy, I would say. I'm pretty sure yeah, the first pregnancy was pretty normal. I went through a few different OBS, just because the first one that I had chosen to be my OB from moving out from California. It just felt like five minute appointments. Let me measure you comment on how large you are. Make you feel really bad about yourself? And you have any questions? Okay, no, by. So that's what it was the whole time. And yeah, I was having a very normal pregnancy, but a little extra just FaceTime would have been great. So I was not happy. And trying to it was in the last trimester. I think it was actually a few weeks just before Liam was born, I ended up switching providers in the same practice, but to another one. But when switching when the one provider that was so confusing, one provider was saying she delivered all of her patients babies herself, she did not share patients with the rest of the practice. She was the only one that did that. So that was appealing to me initially. And so when switching I knew that would come with Yes, I'm seeing an OB in the office regularly. But that means whomever showing up by birth is not probably going to be that person. So I went in, at one point, met a different OB I really liked her. She spent probably a good 10 extra minutes with me. And that made me feel really great. And we chatted. So I decided just to switch and I felt more comfortable. And that was that was enough for me. And then I think I went in at 37 and six, six days. Yeah, cuz Liam was born at 3830 Yeah, so 36 Or sorry, 37 and six, and I think it was like a centimeter dilated. And she was just like, I doubt this is gonna happen anytime soon. And then my water broke the next morning around like 3:45am Broken bed and then I just continue to stand in the bathtub as I was texting you. And calling the on call number may just sit Yeah, you should probably come in but don't rush but don't wait too long and like, well, that's vague. So I took a shower, got ready. My husband was in full blown panic. Even though I felt like he was more prepared than most people, but he was an absolute panic. And he didn't let me do anything even though I was like I had no contractions. It was just the water breaking. I was nervous but all I felt frozen at the time. And he's like, make sure you eat something and I'm like, how you're supposed to eat right now. I don't know. I know I'm supposed to but I have zero appetite. My wish I had eaten but you know, that's that's how it is. So we casually get to the hospital was about like a 30 minute drive still, I think I had maybe one or two mild contractions on the way there was nothing significant. Both of us were almost silent. We just do our lives are changing in the next day. And I think we were adopted. Gosh, yeah, so got out the hospital intake was brutal. I was still leaking fluid. I don't think I don't think it was bleeding. I think it was, I think it was just the amniotic fluid. And up until that point, I think I forgot to put on a pad or No, I soaked through my pad and my pants were pretty much wet. And I think I remember reg reading early on, like you should need to bring your, your will or your you know, your documents for if you die to the hospital, which I thought that was normal. So that's what I had done. And the woman's like, No, don't, I don't want those. Wow. Well, if I die, somebody needs to know what happens. Here's my documents, and but joining in, like everybody with their masks on which I understand. I'm all for masking. But it makes things so incredibly impersonal. And when I'm in like a massive panic being told, I'm crazy for bringing in these documents if I die with the possibility, not likely, but it's possible. My anxiety was obviously through the roof. But gosh, yeah, the intake it took forever for me to get back to the room just for them to confirm that I was in labor. And I had drenched my pants by then. And just sitting in this. My husband wasn't there that he couldn't be there with me. So I'm just sitting in a chair

Tanya Tringali 17:02

until you were deemed in labor and put into your own labor room. Right?

Sarah 17:07

Yes. So he went off to some waiting area I don't know where I had to go off and sit in some cold chair, leaking pants until I could be brought back. And then I eventually was brought back was able to change. They it probably took another 30 minutes. 45 minutes for them to confirm that. Yes, that is amniotic fluid. And I didn't just pee myself when I'm just like I've been pee. I'm been urinating for the past two hours now. So like, not not, not reasonable. So that happened. And then the intake nurse gave me an IV, she put it in my wrist. And she ended up squeezing my wrist to try to get blood out and bruise me pretty severely. It was incredibly painful. Eventually, when we were in the labor room, I asked them can this go elsewhere? Because I can't I can't move my arm. I feel like I need to move and I'm incapable of moving my arm without massive pain in my wrist. Like yeah, it has to go somewhere else. So they moved it and that made everything substantially better. So after they moved it, I felt I felt pretty. Pretty okay. And labor was happening contractions kind of picked up but then they they died down and then pick back up and all that sort of thing. The OB came in was like you're not really making progress. Yeah, so they're, I guess I wasn't moving class, you know. So with my water breaking, they were concerned of infection and all of that and me not knowing enough consented to Pitocin which really kicked up my contractions. Those were so much more painful. And then I ended up getting an epidural, which was not what I wanted, but that was a serious pain. So now going through it twice. Epidural or Pitocin contractions are substantially worse. I know that now.

Tanya Tringali 19:23

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Well, you know what the only thing I will say about Pitocin is an Potos it gets a bad rap and it deserves it most of the time. But I always have this other thought going through my mind when someone really needs Pitocin, which I'm not saying that you actually needed it in that first birth, right, that's likely to be the case, from what I've heard in terms of the timeline we're on at this point. But in order to dilate more contractions do get stronger. So it's very possible because you can't have the same baby twice under two different circumstances, we have no actual way of knowing that the strength of those contractions that came on then wouldn't have been very similar, just many hours later, at with a slower progression in that direction. Right. Like I that's something I always think about, because Pitocin has such a bad rap for causing such wretched contractions. Now, people who have had babies with them without I think they can provide a little bit more like insight. But anyway, it's just something I spend a lot of time thinking about.

Sarah 21:06

Yeah, I do wonder, too. But I'm pretty sold

Tanya Tringali 21:12

I've never had Pitocin. So I have no basis for saying this. And when I give people Pitocin, I do it very, very slowly, like slower than most people. Because I feel like I see this experience where if people can kind of adjust to each little incremental, and change in intensity, then they cope better. It's when like, we give so much Pitocin we're upping it so fast, we don't know when it's really going to kick in, and then all of a sudden, you go from not feeling much to feeling everything. And you never make that transition smoothly. You know? So that's another theory I have about what's going on with the experience of Pitocin.

Sarah 21:51

Yeah, that's a good point.

Tanya Tringali 21:53

Anyway, I digress. Go on.

Sarah 21:55

Let's see. So I end up getting getting an epidural. My husband couldn't be in the room for that either. He had to sit in on the hallway. And he tells me I have to like this is days later, I think he tells me that he was googling things that can go wrong during an epidural. And how the whole how it all goes because he was not reverse because that was not the plan. And so and he was incredibly nervous. But it was incredibly quick. I had just a couple of contractions through it wasn't a big deal. I made it and my nurse, I still think about her to this day of just like me having to hunched over for that epidural, and she helped me and she was warm and soft. And it just felt like home and I'm just like how can a complete stranger does feel like the biggest comfort of the world right now. But she was and she noticed like throughout the labor that my anxiety was really high. And so she just talked to me just like as a normal human being normal conversation. I think the OB telling me that you know, you're not progressing enough. Obviously threw me for a loop and she knew that. But I yeah, I don't even recall what we talked about. I think we talked about plants because I'm a plant person. And I don't even know probably food because I love food. But she was seriously just amazing. And I just want to hug her all the time. She was spectacular. And I was really sad. Wouldn't ship change happened at seven o'clock because I didn't have her anymore. The next lady was fine, but I didn't have that log. Like yeah, 10 hours to Bong. Yeah, but she stayed on top of you know, switching me around with the with the peanuts, and that was awesome. But I was pretty pretty content after the epidural. And, gosh, I think it was reaching like nine o'clock at night. I couldn't nap. I tried to just, you know, relax between now and then I just really couldn't map. I was too anxious and excited and all the feelings. So I think it was around nine that they're like it's been a while since we've checked because I think I you know, rejected a couple of them because I'm like, I'm not in the moon. Just leave me alone at this point. Um, but it's yeah, they ended up checking and I was like, okay, that's fine. And his head was just about coming out. And nobody knew. I didn't know I felt absolutely nothing. Like no pressure. Nothing. And that's the big part of why I think I was traumatized. I felt nothing. I felt like I didn't do anything to bring Liam into this world. I was just Just the vessel that carried him and he just came right on out which, yay for zero, like I pushed two times or three times, I don't know very little within five, five minutes. I think he was out. And yeah, he came out I tore, I think I had a second a second degree tear. That was not fun, but I didn't feel it. And yeah, I mean, he just was born and they put him on my chest. And I remember looking at Kurt, and he had his mask on, I didn't have one on but he had his as you know, policy. But I was so disturbed because I couldn't see the expression on his face. I couldn't read his face. And it just felt so impersonal. And with the one person that this should be life changing with. That was tough. So just I think importantly, it was birth was so tainted with so many.

Tanya Tringali 26:08

It feels like one thing compounded another right like, I think you were so stunned to have found yourself not just fully dilated, but like the babies had literally on your perineum, ready to come out, right. And you were so shocked by that. And you had your own unique response to that somebody else may have just counted their blessings and said, wonderful, I don't need to think about it anymore. But that's not how it affected you. And I think this is a really important point to drive home for people is that trauma is in the eye of the beholder. It's in the body of the person who experiences it. And one person can say, that sounds like a win to me. And the other person is saying, what the f. I don't understand how this just happened. And I'm completely freaked out by it. And you were not an active participant in that and that really bother you. And so you went from that shock to looking at your husband and not being able to read his expression. And I think all of that just wound itself off into your existing anxiety. Right? And then it kind of sent you plummeting down into a bit of a depression, right?

Sarah 27:23

Yeah, I didn't recover. I didn't recover from it. I feel like it was monsoon as he took medication to recover from it because it just got worse. Yeah, and postpartum because first bottom hit like the second boulders. But I mean, you were there. And you helped directed us through the majority of it. And that made all the difference in the world, like both. Both my husband and I don't can't grasp how that time would have been without you. And how much worse off we would have been in our lives. Obviously, we would have survived. But the those few months would have been the worst period of our life.

Tanya Tringali 28:09

And it was hard. It was hard for me because you were in a lot of pain. Yeah. And your husband was in pain. And he was afraid. And I think none of us really knew for sure. Whether what we were doing to try to pull you out of it and help pull you through. It was right. It was it's a lot of trial and error sometimes. Yeah, you know, but I have a vague memory. It's getting to be obviously a long time ago. Now we're talking, you know, two and a half years ago, as you say, I kind of remember that. You texted or called me out of the blue. And I want to say I was on another podcast and talk to somewhat another client about it was Liesel Teen, right? Is that what it was? Was it Liesel Teen from mommy labor nurse. And she was talking through her postpartum experience. And we started talking about how medication changed her life. Yeah. And you texted me out of the blue and said, I think I'm ready for medication. Yep. And then that's really where your things started to vary. Yeah.

Sarah 29:18

It goes around three months, four months postpartum, or so. I definitely wish I had started sooner. But I know I was I was holding out thinking I can I can make it I can make it but

Tanya Tringali 29:33

So did you. Do you mind my asking? Did you stay on medication? Were you on medication through this pregnancy? Like where are you at with medication?

Sarah 29:40

Um, I saw I did stop. After Liam, I think it was a year after Leon. And I wanted to see how things go. So it was before we were even trying. But I ended up getting back on medication. The last trimester of this Pregnancy of the second pregnancy Jack. And that was I was noticing a lot of familiar feelings and thoughts, even though my life was completely different, but the sheer amount of anxiety that I was feeling just about everything, and I couldn't relax and calm down and I felt like normal, strange little habits of mine were starting to creep up and becoming, you know, obsessions. And I figured it's time I'm not going to be a proud person, I'm just going to get on the medication and because my goal was to enjoy the newborn period. And if I knew if I was not on the medication, I would just be spiraling and going through all that all over again. So what was the purpose? So I got on, I got on a different one. I was on Zoloft. The first go round and I am on Celexa this time, which I've noticed, has less side effects than Zoloft had for me and Celexa was the first thing that depressant I was on in my early 20s. So I figured, we're going to try something different. That seemed to make the most sense, because that one seemed to agree with me the most.

Tanya Tringali 31:16

And do you attribute your ability to enjoy this time, mostly to the medicine mostly to your birth experience, which I want to hear about here in a moment? Like what do you think are the factors involved and why you're having a much nicer, easier transition?

Sarah 31:34

Yeah, I think it's a bit of both. So I think just my OB care, my OB care, I didn't have OB care, I had midwife care, the whole pregnancy. And that was amazing. And it was about an hour drive. Hour 20, I think to get to her. So it was a trip each time. And now that was became more difficult as the pregnancy went on. Because I was so sleepy. I was so tired, I'd have to pull over and take a nap on the side of the road to be able to drive back home. Yeah, I just like I had zero energy. I just needed to nap all the time. So yeah, I mean, that that care, that level of care made all the difference in the world. She was She is spectacular.

Tanya Tringali 32:26

Tell tell us a little bit about give us a few examples, like really show people who don't get it yet. What the difference is,

Sarah 32:37

She began to understand who I was as a person and what was important to me in life, whether it was her beliefs or not. And I she was very neutral about things. You know, she believed she she I found similarities between her and you, where we live in this medical world. And yes, there's a lot of things that are medically necessary all the time. Absolutely not. And she lived in the gray area, which I appreciate because I am I believe that same thing. Where, yes, milk, medical information is amazing. And it saves lives. And we've made such advancements. But a lot of things are super normal. And we need to let them play out. So that's where she, she said, and she explained that to me. She She just got to know like, she's would talk to me about just normal life. And she asked me about my relationship with my mother, and kind of understood how that plays into the mother that I am and where I want to be. And she got to know my husband, she didn't see him very often because my husband doesn't get much time off with from work. So that was unfortunate. But that's a different conversation. I got to go down to her house. She left the door open, you just walked right in. And you go to this other room, you sit down on a couch, and she said in a check. You just would talk for an hour and you bring up any concerns you might have. Other than that you just might be talking about something funny movie you're watching lately, literally anything for an hour. And sometimes it went long. Sometimes it didn't go as long as whatever you needed was totally perfectly fine. And you'd lay down on the couch and you'd listen to the baby with the Doppler. Nobody touched my vagina for you know, she didn't she hadn't even seen me undressed, or she didn't touch me. Other than touching my belly just to feel where the baby is. She didn't touch my vagina up until she checked me while I was in labor. After asking me, is this okay? Even before touching my belly, she, she'd like, warm up her hands. And she looked at me she's like this. Okay, are you ready? Can I touch you now? And I'm just like, what my, my shirt is up? So, yes, but that's normal. That's normal to ask somebody, can I touch you first?

Tanya Tringali 35:19

So, so yes, you are you are talking about the importance of consent. Right. So I think people really undervalue the the importance of the relationship that is built between midwives and their clients. Because we can't, it's very hard to have an objective outcome as it relates to that, we just simply know that midwives do good work and have all in all very, very good outcomes. And we see this in every country that has midwives. But we can't always quantify the reasons why. Because they can be so elusive, and some of it is in the relationship building. And when you talk about her being neutral, I think what you're also talking about there as what we like to call shared decision making. So you know, I always tell people, if I'm going to share a bias with you, which I won't do often, but if I'm going to share it with you, I will be explicit about it. This is a personal bias of mine. And really, one of my only big biases is that I wish that we favored midwives over obese for normal, healthy birth. So it's really that's really where it's at. And now you're talking about consent. And that consent process has to be so explicit. So it makes me actually wonder something else would you say she didn't even check you until you were in labor? I'm wondering if you did, if you had a GBS culture done, if you did it yourself,

Sarah 36:52

I did it myself. Yeah. I did it myself, and even my glucose testing. Because she knew I live so far away, and just how inconvenient fasting, getting Liam to take care, all of that would be. She lent me a little diabetic meter, glucose meter, she lent me one of those, I just had to get some strips for it. I drink a Naked juice at home and the correct timing, take took pictures of my readings and just texted it to her. She's like, that looks great. That's it.

Tanya Tringali 37:28

I mean, that's a little bit of an unconventional glucose method. But there's a place for it and normal, healthy people who are making informed decisions, that's fair, we're good. There's definitely going to be people listening who were like fats, not proper glucose testing, and they are correct. But again, full share decision making happening here.

Sarah 37:49

In my my circumstance, it made the most sense. And we knew that that was not going to be an issue. And yeah, that's what it is.

Tanya Tringali 38:00

And I, you know, I, anyone who knows me and has listened to bet knows that I have lots of thoughts about how we diagnose and treat diabetes. And so there is value actually at actually doing finger sticks and figuring out where you're at in real time, because all of these numbers have different meanings. And I tend to think that we do things a little too late. So this is kind of an interesting strategy. And I would love to see some data on all the different ways that we can do this, but that data is not very good right now. So anyway, so tell us a little bit about what happened. So I am noting and reminding myself that you had your first baby at the early end of what we consider full term, which is slightly unusual in and of itself, given that most babies are born between 39 and 41 weeks so you are already an outlier. So what happened with with the second

Sarah 38:54

We were suspecting him to be early just because of my first birth and how things tend to be similar in some ways and but my midwife was she was so insistent saying do not get your hopes up. This could go to 42 You have no idea and that's it's perfectly okay. Just don't don't get Don't get excited. I'm just like, not really excited, but I have a feeling. I just have a feeling he he's going to be early, whether it's as early I don't know. But I was prepared. I was going to stop work at 37 weeks. That was that was what I had scheduled at 32 or 33 weeks. It was our anniversary we went out. My best friend was babysitting. We went out to teppanyaki and to the movies afterwards, during teppanyaki ate it was delicious, but those Braxton Hicks are really kicking my butt like At this point, I had been having a ton of Braxton Hicks, throughout the last year must have just like the first one. I was like, that's perfectly normal, it's whatever. But they were starting to come at regular intervals and freaking me out a little bit. But I'm just like, you know, they're not painful. They're just uncomfortable. So I'm like, that's fine. We finished eating. I've watched a lot of there because I mean, I know you're technically larger the second time around. There was my eye. It was so uncomfortable to move, I, my stomach cannot stretch any more. And I was only gonna do 33 weeks at that time, I was so uncomfortable. But we went to the movies. And we got 45 minutes into the movies. And through that whole time, I was having legitimate contractions, these were getting painful. I was timing them, they're lasting 30-45 seconds, almost every three minutes. And I was just like, there's a problem here. And so I started texting her. And I'm super thankful she texted back really quickly. She's like, this doesn't sound good. You should go home, get into the bathroom, try to calm down. Like, let's let's get this to slow down. So, like I had left the theater and told my husband I'm just gonna go try to go to the bathroom, see if this helps him switch positions, do all of that. And that just made it worse. So we came home I hopped in the tub drink the like liquid IV drinks, I chugged a thing of that. gotten caught in the tub and try to just unwind and told my friend, thanks for watching, but we might be calling you in a couple hours. And because we have to go to the hospital, because this is way too early. This is a problem. So she's like, my phone will be on loud. I'll be back here if I need to. It's, it's fine. Keep them posted. I think it was a good two hours later, before things calmed down. And my midwife she's like, You should probably go in and see if there's any dilation happening with these. And I was just like, you know, I really don't want to. I just really didn't I don't know what it was. But I didn't. I had zero interest in going I think part of me was just terrified of you know, what I would go through the second time around if I went in and I didn't know something and he was just like, No, don't do it. So things did calm down. She even suggested I drink some wine to try to relax my uterus and I was like

Tanya Tringali 42:45

A half a glass of wine is medicinal in this case if you

Sarah 42:48

I don't even drink at all I like I was almost offended by it. But I understood after it was like I have zero interest in Genki

Tanya Tringali 42:57

it's one of the earliest treatments for preterm labor historically, the way ever used, it's just not ideal to like do IVs of alcohol and stuff like that but a half a glass of wine when your term or you know not term but you know in your third trimester is not going to make or break you.

Sarah 43:15

You're good. I was offended though. But I know it's fine.

Tanya Tringali 43:21

Did you know that less than 15% of people meet guidelines for recommended amount of physical activity during pregnancy. As healthcare providers, it is our duty to promote health and wellness throughout the lifespan and the perinatal period is all too often overlooked. Our clients look to us for guidance on this. And we do the best we can with the knowledge we have. But that's often based on a combination of life experiences, common sense and myths. My new course exercise in the perinatal period for health care providers is designed for providers who are motivated to improve their ability to support their clients and getting or staying active throughout the perinatal period, including their postpartum return to fitness. Click the link in the show notes to learn more.

Sarah 44:08

Yeah, so I didn't drink but once things calm down, they turned more into Braxton Hicks again, just lots of tightening list. Contracting. Um, I got in bed and I slept and everything was fine.

Tanya Tringali 44:21

So they petered away. So it was like a 12 hour, like total thing or less. It was probably

Sarah 44:28

five, five or six, five or six says,

Tanya Tringali 44:31

Yeah, and you never saw any bleeding or mucousy show or anything like that.

Sarah 44:36

Nope, I didn't have any of that. I lost my clearly

Tanya Tringali 44:40

you stayed pregnant for three or four more weeks. Right? So, I mean, right? But you did all the proactive things and if it had persisted, I'm assuming you would have gotten it.

Sarah 44:50

I was getting very close to going in. Yeah, it was very close. But I have zero interest in doing it. But I was like, yeah,

Tanya Tringali 44:59

I think deep down, you knew that you would be poked and prodded and treated like a science experiment, and you probably would have been would have ended up on some medications to try to stop it with an IV and all of these things and at least an overnight and you saw what was you saw the writing on the wall, and you were like, I'm not going there. Unless I feel certain that this is the real deal.

Sarah 45:21

When it felt dire. I was absolutely going to Yeah, but no, let's see. So I lost my mucus plug. 36 weeks, not the biggest deal, but notable. So I told, told my midwife and she's just like, Okay, good to know, just keep me posted. And I continued to lose it for like a couple more days. But I remember vaguely waking up throughout the night. I had a little bit of pain, just like you said happening happening, but I slept through the majority of it. Not really noticing what was going on. Like, I think I was trying to cook some waffles. And I was having to pause while I was mixing batter. And I'm just like, Okay, I'm gonna see what happens. But I'm just gonna sit. I texted, texted, my wife told her what was up. She's like, I need to take it easy. My best friend who was going to watch Liam throughout the homebirth. She was in Georgia that weekend. And we're just like, well, fingers crossed. He doesn't come and then I was texting her. I'm like, It's your mom available the chance. She is. And I was like, Cool. So I texted her mom who is spectacular. She watches live all the time. I told her like, we're hoping this isn't legitimate. But if you're available, we might need you to come over to take care of Liam because it might be going into labor. She's like, let me know I'll be over. It's not a big deal. So and then my husband was pressure washing something outside. I don't, I went outside. And I told him, I'm like, I really need to get in the tub. Things are starting to get really painful. And I'm gonna just try to relax and hope that this is nothing. And I hung out in the tub contractions kept coming. I was in contact with the midwife the whole time. And then she's just like, this is early. I would like things to slow down, obviously. So we don't know. But there was a midwife that was like 10 minutes away that she's a muse was in communication. But she's like, do you mind if she comes over just to see if you are dilating to see if I need to make my way because she was an hour and a half away. So I said, that's fine. That's cool. She comes over, I was approved at this point, I was living in the water. Kurt was working on filling up the birthing pool. He came over. I think I was five centimeters at that point.

Tanya Tringali 48:11

The midwife that was closer to local said you were five?

Sarah 48:14

Yep. She's like your five things were starting to pick up for sure. So we told my actual midwife. Yes, please come over. And she asked the other lady to hang around. While while she made her way over, and I had been doing Hypno birthing classes, like virtual classes. And honestly, I don't I'm guessing that was it? Because, yes, things are painful, but it was so manageable. Like it. I just went into a zone and I forgot anything that was happening is spectacular. Um, so she had arrived. I was things were definitely happening. I think I was checked again and my progress I think like to six and I started getting into the tub or into the birthing pool so much more comfortable than my tub. And we were just waiting at this point. Everybody else was kind of prepping things all around me and Kurt was trying to get me trying to get me to eat stuff and I couldn't really eat we gotten to the nighttime and things started to peter out there like it's okay, we'll see. We'll see what happens and but I started vomiting with every contraction

Tanya Tringali 49:39


Sarah 49:40

It was brutal. I started vomiting. I couldn't hold down water. I they tried to give me honey. I nothing absolutely nothing. So the next morning came Monday morning I had been vomiting through the night. I hadn't slept. Contractions picked by pick back up around five o'clock in the morning, I think is at this point like I had nothing left to give after vomiting for almost 12 hours at that point, the the local midwife she as things were kind of slowing down. She was just like, I was getting checked in my midwife was just like, Yeah, okay, no progress. But that's not a big deal. You know, we'll see how it goes. But the other one, she was so quick to just say, are you ready to go to the hospital, we can get you an epidural. And I was like, Where are we at right now? Like, once, and my midwife was really angry. We talked about it afterwards. So she pretty much dismissed her after that. Told her we'll let you know if we need you. So she dismissed her. We didn't need her. So. But the next morning, were figuring out what to do. I was depleted. And I was thinking to myself, like I can't go through another day, continuing to vomit, and having to push a baby out also, like how is that physically possible? So we decided to Well, I guess I decided to go to the hospital. Because like this, I reached the point like, I have no no clue how much longer this is going to take. So we're going to go to the hospital. And I'll probably get an epidural because I want to this time, because I'm there. Why not? So we went to the hospital and going through intake while you're in contractions. So much worse than just leaking out of your pants, I have to say, but everybody was so much nicer. So much nicer.

Tanya Tringali 51:44

Is this the same hospital you went to the first time?

Sarah 51:46

No, I refuse to go back to that are different. Yeah. So we were going to go to one which I had planned out in my mind. But the the midwife she's just like, go to this other one. They're much more friendly with transfers. And I've called ahead and told them that you're coming because I know somebody there currently, my midwife stayed back, she cleaned things up, she put some stuff in the wash. And she made us there like in an hour later, I had gone through intake. Once I got IV fluids, I was a whole nother person. My husband said you got your personality back. And that that was obviously different. They gave me anti nausea meds. That was amazing. I think I only puked a handful of times after that. But they kept that stuff on hand for me, which was spectacular. Let's see.

Tanya Tringali 52:45

was an IV at home not an option?

Sarah 52:47

She got what was the reasoning for that? I forget the reasoning. There was a reason for it. But I can't recall. What happened. Yeah, I don't remember that. And she was contemplating breaking my water at home. Because she would when she would check me he just felt like he was so high up. And there's so much fluid. She's just like, if I break it, though, I worry that the cord is going to come out first. And I we don't have the we're not in a hospital like we can't Yeah, it's not potentially not safe. She's just like, I want to, but the My body's telling me now. I'm like, Yeah, I totally understand. That's, that's fine. I'd rather be more secure about that. That sounds pretty risky. Because we were pretty stalled. And it was just going back and forth. Like things would slow down and they picked up and they slow down. It was just so much of that. And then she's she's just she had an opinion of just things are supposed to be a little bit more linear than this. And they're done. Yeah.

Tanya Tringali 53:53

And it's unusual because it's a second baby. Second, babies are usually just our most straightforward, easy births. Right. But the I do feel that that is not always true when somebody's having a preterm labor because the body is not totally ready. Right. So it's like a there's a conflict of interest going on there.

Sarah 54:12

Right. Yeah. So I think that's what it was all about. And that's why she was she was definitely on board with getting me to the hospital. She was waiting for me to be okay. Yes. Because the night fine. Right. She had decided the night before that this was probably good idea to go to the hospital. She didn't tell me that though.

Tanya Tringali 54:30

Sure. And I really appreciate that because this is the point I want to drive home for people who are considering home births and who are you know, just don't don't understand exactly all the details of how this stuff works. confirm for me that I'm correct, but I'm pretty sure from your story. Your baby's heartbeat was always perfect. Your blood pressure was always perfect. Everything that we use to assess overall health of mom and baby. were perfect. it except for this wacky vomiting thing you had going on. And so she's watching you closely, and waiting for you to say, I want to be there now.

Sarah 55:11

Right? Exactly. Everything else was perfectly fine. He never had any issues through any of the contractions. She was watching over me so closely, but enough at a distance like she was there, but I didn't notice or feel safe. Yeah, I was safe. She was five feet away at max most of the time, but I hardly noticed that she was there. I don't know how to explain it other than that she was. I got it. Yeah, amazing. The staff was amazing at the hospital. They were I had a team of midwives and nurse nurses. I didn't have any of these, the doctor that I saw was the anesthesiologist only.

Tanya Tringali 55:51

So wait, you got certified nurse midwives now caring for you at the hospital? The ones that you couldn't get into care with at the beginning of all of this?

Sarah 55:59

Not not? They weren't available for home births, but they're available for hospital births. Yes.

Tanya Tringali 56:07

Okay, so when you said there were only five CNM? Those were five CNM's that do homebirth.

Sarah 56:12

Homebirths. Yes. So okay, so the CNMs,

Tanya Tringali 56:15

but I was gonna say I didn't quite I was like having a really hard time with there's only five cn M's in the state. You met five? CNM. So do homebirth got it? I'm much clearer. Okay. Okay.

Sarah 56:25

Yes. Got it. Um, so yes. Now I had CNMs. And they were amazing. My only weird thing was they had a traveling, CNMs CNM. That was just visiting and learning. I think it was a teaching hospital. And they stay came in with her. And they asked the CNM that was caring for me if she minded that she be here with her all day and whatnot. And she's like, No, that's fine. But they didn't ask me whether I cared. I'm just like, I don't know who you are. Why didn't you ask me? But I'm just like, honestly, should I be surprised? I'm not bothered by it. But I would have liked to be asked,

Tanya Tringali 57:09

Well, you are bothered by it. And you have a right to be bothered by it.

Sarah 57:12

Yes, I absolutely would have said yes. I had zero problem with with her being there. But the consideration to ask me, yeah, for being around for my birth. That That was rude. And I kind of wish I had spoken up. But this was like during intake before I had any IV or meds. So I was not there at the time. I was Yeah. Trying to exist.

Tanya Tringali 57:37

And this is this is related to consent. Just because no one's asking if they can touch you. It's still about consent. Who can be in this room while I do this very intimate thing,

Sarah 57:48

right? Yeah. I'd be like consent is I'm all I'm all for it.

Tanya Tringali 57:53

Yeah. Gosh. Okay, so So now you have an epidural. It's working. Well?

Sarah 57:58

epidural works really well. I think I had to up at once because at one point I felt it was on one side where I was starting to feel some actual pain. I was like, I'm not supposed to feel this. So I pushed the button to have it. And after that, everything was fine.

Tanya Tringali 58:15

Did you get any sleep this time?

Sarah 58:18

I did not get any sleep. But I finally felt like I was able to rest after the epidural. And I was open to Pitocin if it was necessary, but at that point, there was no nobody, nobody said so. I told them at the beginning. If it's necessary, I'm open to it. Because it had been so long at this point. I'm like, I'm ready. But oh, the biggest point in it. The epidural. As I was lowering myself back down to the table after the epidural, like laying, like down on my side or something. My water broke. My Water finally broke. And it was a Gusher. Like it was so much more than the first time around. It was it was massive. So we were all excited. My midwife who was like finally she's like, I could have could have ruined your waters at home and I'm just like, it's okay. It's perfectly okay. That was great. Now we're just waiting games like Okay, let's see what happens. So contractions were they were coming, everything was normal, was rotating, doing everything. And it was an hour. Maybe two hours later, they they came in they're like you might have we see where you're at. No, that's fine. And they're like, Well, you have a lip like an interior lip. Yeah, you have an interior lip right now. And I bet if we just like hold it and you push we could probably get it all the way. And then we'll be good to go. And I'm just like, Okay, so that's what we did. It got out of the way sort of out of the way. They're like, Okay, it's time and I hadn't it didn't click in my mind that that's what all that was needed that it was time to push. After like, like, right then I was just like, wait, what? Now this is happening now. I'm not ready. This like, I had a little freakout moment I was, I was not ready. I don't know why I was not ready. It just seemed to jump up on me really quick, just like last time. How can I not feel anything? I was the biggest concern that I kept telling everybody like, I want to be able to feel something. I felt nothing again. And I was so annoyed. I'm just like, but that's okay, though. Like, we're ready. And then I ended up getting a mirror to see which game changer absolute game changer, because I remember the first time like, they said, push, I pushed like, there was no tomorrow. And I didn't this time I took normal pushes. I push. Gosh, we have a whole video of it. I think I pushed her maybe a total of four minutes. And he came right on out and like the midwife that was delivering, she stood back. She had her hands just in front of her body. Just hanging out there saying words of encouragement. She didn't touch me. She didn't touch me at all. She's let me do my thing. She's like, that's great. Okay, the contraction is over. You can relax right now. Like, this is incredible. And then the moment he was about to come, she told the midwife because my midwife was there as a doula because she couldn't be there at her full capacity. Yeah, they were all they all knew. But we did. We did talk about the elephant in the room. See, she was recording and then they, they told her, we don't actually allow recordings of the birth. And she's just like, what? And I'm, like, look on my face is like, Excuse me. So she's like, What can I do still shots and then she asked like her she's a what do you guys want me do to have like her face or still shots. And Kurt said still shots. But I knew I had the live photo setting on my phone for all of my pictures. Because Apple there live photos. I was like, I'm gonna sit just together and get my own video you don't worry about it. It's gonna be five. So she was just taking a bajillion photos. It's perfect. And I was watching in the mirror. And I was able to push jack out really quick. It was not a big deal. It was so calming, and my husband's there with vomit bag because you never know and with with Liam's worth, I vomited, right as I pushed him out. So he's just like, I'm prepared this time. You never know she might do to get I didn't, but he's there the whole time. Just hold the bag.

Tanya Tringali 1:03:23

And you got to see his face this time.

Sarah 1:03:25

I got to see his face. And the moment we had together was amazing. This whole birth was I mean, it didn't go to plan. It was not it was not at home, but it was amazing. I wouldn't have it any other way other than maybe not the vomiting but I mean, I feel like if it wasn't for the vomiting, I would have done it at home and all would have been fine. But that's whatever at this point. Yeah, so he came out. I didn't really tear there was like a slight little tearing but when he came out was floodgates absolute floodgates, so even after my water broke, it was entire floodgates, like there I have recording of it and it sounds like a river. Like it legit. Sounds like absolute river. And so everybody's like freaking out over it. Washes everybody. And honestly watching the recording of is the most spectacular thing I've ever seen.

Tanya Tringali 1:04:36

It sounds like you had what I would call a touch of the poly polyhydramnios like just a little bit too much water too much that explains the massive gush at the beginning. The baby staying high until really long into the labor and then having this massive gush after clearly a non event. Not a big deal. But like if you were in a regular would be practice that was utilizing lots of sonogram they probably would have told you that you had what's called polyhydramnios. And then you probably would have felt like a science project yada yada yada all the things

Sarah 1:05:12

I didnt have a word for it until now.

Tanya Tringali 1:05:14

So there you go. That's yeah.

Sarah 1:05:18

I remember going into just like ultrasounds, just those, you know, little sonograms on the side that you can get just see baby, because I did those and they're like, Well, you must be really hydrated. I was like, Well, I mean, that isn't you know, they said something. Yeah. And I didn't think anything of it. Because I made sure I was hydrated go to this, they said to be hydrated. And I didn't think anything of it. So I was like, Yeah, that's true. But yeah, so that's what was holding everything up was all the fluids. He was swimming in his little Jacuzzi. Yeah, at the time. And let's see, we had the hour and then I feel like even more than an hour afterwards of him just on my chest. We're just hanging out, everything's fine. They did reach up inside my uterus to get out clots and everything just to make sure because they were worried about the sheer amount of like cited a bleeding a lot that gave me Pitocin in my leg. There was a fair amount of bleeding that cleared up pretty quickly.

Tanya Tringali 1:06:25

That happens a little bit more often with polyhydramnios. Because your uterus is a little over distended. Yeah. That's why it was stretched out. You felt so big when you were 30 to 33 weeks, boy a piece of this one together, like in real time here

Sarah 1:06:40

It's coming together. Yeah. So I was like, I was so stretched. Like at 30 weeks, I looked at the very pregnant. So when people said oh, are you? Don't you have twins? Yeah, obviously, I was pissed off but they weren't wrong. I looked very large

Tanya Tringali 1:06:57

Did you measure a little bit big throughout the pregnancy?

Sarah 1:07:00

I did. But with Liam I was two to three above the whole time

Tanya Tringali 1:07:05

and everybody gave you such a hard time about Fosse. So this time you were like shut up. I've heard it before. Perfectly normal. And healthy. We're both of the babies at birth.

Sarah 1:07:15

Liam was 7lbs 1.1oz. He was 6 lbs 13oz?

Tanya Tringali 1:07:20

About a week earlier? Yep. Right. Okay,

Sarah 1:07:23

we got a couple days. So yeah, not much difference in size.

Tanya Tringali 1:07:27

Totally. And so you make, you know, average ish size babies, but you measure a little bit bigger, at least in the second story, because of a lot of fluid, the first time might have been fairly similar for you. It's just that you broke your water. So long before Labor before they were like really in good labor. And you were leaking a lot over a long period of time. So the presentation was a little bit different. So that might have been what was going on both times?

Sarah 1:07:49

I think so a wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, so he was great.

Tanya Tringali 1:07:56

You know, what I love about your story. And the way you're telling it and your and recounting your experience is that even though it didn't go quote, according to plan, you're very pleased with your experience. And you got you got to experience a lot of different types of midwifery care this time. You've kind of got the gamut between like your CPM midwife who was going to attend your home birth to switching to the local midwife who seemed fine, but there was the off comment that didn't make you so happy. And then moving over to the hospital. And obviously, there's that little odd moment where they don't ask you if the traveling midwife can be part of the equation, but then she's so good at being hands off during the birth and the way that mirror replaced your feeling of disconnect. Right, so it kind of all comes together. And there are all these ways in which we can give someone their power back when they're when in your case, you kind of needed that epidural at that point because you were so shot. And then you had a moment of almost being thrust back into this repeat place of I can't feel anything and I'm not happy with that. But it does seem like the mirror gave you that back. It did gave you your power, you could see yourself doing what you were doing.

Sarah 1:09:14

I think that's all I needed was to I needed to feel in control and I do that with every aspect of my life. But that's what I mean me choosing to go to the hospital me choosing the epidural me choosing to get Pitocin if it was necessary. I I felt I made all of those choices. And that's all I wanted. I chose the care that I got. And I got the care that I wanted. And I felt like I chose everything even though there was events that didn't go to plan. That was not an issue. Because I made those choices based on what was happening myself with amazing education. So yeah.

Tanya Tringali 1:09:59

And how many weeks postpartum Are you now? Just for listeners sake? Are you How old's the baby?

Sarah 1:10:06

It's a good question. I think he's like us April 17.

Tanya Tringali 1:10:15

Okay, April, May, June, not quite two months. Oh, no, sorry. We're July now. Now I don't do time.

Sarah 1:10:21

Yeah, two and a half 10 or 11. Two and a half months.

Tanya Tringali 1:10:25

Isn't it? So funny? You're like, I don't know. What's my second baby? I don't care how old he is.

Sarah 1:10:28

Yeah, honestly, I did not keep track of things as closely as I did

Tanya Tringali 1:10:33

With the first baby. You're like, 37 weeks and six days. Second baby. You're like, I don't know. I was close to term. It's so true. Love it. Love it. Yeah. So let's, and you said you're going back to work really soon? Hmm.

Sarah 1:10:47

Yeah, um, my original plan was to go back and at the very beginning of August, but since he came so early, that changed my plans. Yeah, I may have to go back sooner, depending on how much vacation I choose to use. Because I'm extending my leave with vacation. Yeah, so I don't know, probably in the next few weeks.

Tanya Tringali 1:11:12

Do you have any tips that you would want to share with listeners who are making their way through? Whether that be a first pregnancy or a second, where there's a change in what you want or advocating for yourself? Like all the things that you did for yourself? And that you did so? Well? Is there anything that you want to share with listeners,

Sarah 1:11:40

Um, I think the big thing is not only to lean on whomever your care is with, even if it's within OB, but do your own research, also, so that you can come equipped to the, the appointments with whether it be you know, not so agreeable opinions, but do your own research, I think that made a lot of difference. I learned a lot just from you. So that made a big difference on my second time around, research. And if you're able to bring your partner to your appointments, so that they can help back you'll have if you're not feeling that was comfortable, which isn't always an option, but an asking for the consent if you're not offered it. Because that actually that made the most difference, I think, in this go round, was the consent for everything. And I don't think I realized how much I appreciate that until I actually had it. Because I think I became so accustomed to not having it that it was normal just for everybody and anybody just to touch me whenever they wanted and touch my vagina at every appointment. And I'm like, There's no need.

Tanya Tringali 1:12:51

So an interesting thing on the will end on this note, there is a documentary that's coming out right now called At your cervix. And it is about the big problem that exists around the lack of consent regarding pelvic examinations that happen to women, when they're under anesthesia, undergoing gynecological procedures. And I was I learned about it yesterday from colleagues and one of our Facebook groups. And I watched the trailer and I'm really excited to see the whole thing. And I definitely wanted to like put this out there for people to be aware of. And so it's interesting that we've actually circled back to consent a number of times. So I'll make sure to link that in the show notes for anybody interested in trying to figure out how they can see thatI

Sarah 1:13:42

Im a little terrified to watch that.

Tanya Tringali 1:13:44

Yeah, it's a scary idea. But it's really important and important concept for people to hear the history of this and see where it's going and hear the voices of people who actually care and are trying to make a difference in this, but it's a pretty crazy thing. I mean, I think when people hear this, they're like, Whoa, I never even thought about that. Right? That's crazy thing to have to think about. But if anyone who's worked in a hospital, especially when it's OBGYN related, can see how that can happen. And it's it's pretty terrifying. Anyway, Sarah, thank you so much for sharing your story. With all of us today. I you know how much I love staying in touch with you. And so I was like, literally forcing myself to not ask you too many questions. For today, it's all storytelling.

Before today, like I you know, you texted me when the baby was born, and I was like, I wanted all the I wanted the details. I want to do this, because I knew I wanted to have you on because it was so clear that you were on a path to get the kind of care that you knew you deserve that you didn't get the first time for a whole multitude of reasons. And I'll be honest, I forgot that you I wanted to midwife the first time around, but couldn't sort that out quickly enough because of your move. So I was imagining that you kind of were awakened to the idea of midwifery during that pregnancy. And that's not exactly the case you knew it existed and you just couldn't quite get it. So it changes the tone of the story for me a little bit. But it's still, it's just as powerful because, in a way, it's more powerful. You knew what you wanted, and you couldn't sort it out. And then you You did all of this again, and you fought hard. You reached out to me a couple times, so that we could like really work hard and figure out how to make this happen for you. You made huge sacrifices like driving an hour and a half each way for your care. You know, you you worked so hard for this, and I'm so proud of you. And I thank you so much for staying in good touch with me and I hope you will continue to do so

Sarah 1:15:53

Always, always good to see the boys grow up.

Tanya Tringali 1:16:06

Thank you for listening to the mother whip podcast. If any of the issues we discussed today resonate with you or your experience, I'd love to hear from you. Leave me a voicemail at 917-310-0573 Or better yet, email me a voice memo at Tanya at Mother wit I really want to hear what worked for you what didn't work, what support you'd wish you had, how you got through the tough times how you advocated for yourself, or especially any tips you want to share with our listeners. I want to hear all of it. And if you'd really like to work together, you can get a discount on your first consultation with me at Mother wit using the code firstconsult10%off. That's 1-0-% symbol, all one word. Okay, that's all. That's wonderful being in community with you all. Thanks again for listening and see you next time.

Carolina 1:17:06

And remember, listeners, nothing we discussed on this show should ever be considered medical advice. Please speak to your local provider about anything that comes up in this show that resonates with you and your needs and your health care.

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